If you were 22-26 yo, would you move to Detroit RIGHT NOW? Why?

[noise]

Of course they are. People make decisions based on their personal preferences, including their decisions about where to live. It is precisely because people's personal preferences aren't the same that they don't all want to live in the same places. It is precisely because there are a lot of similarities between personal preferences that some places are more attractive to most people than others.

The big question is how big is the variation in preferences. People like 48009 seem to not to think it is very large. My belief is that it is quite substantial--look at the variation in preferences for urban vs suburban vs exurban living amongst the people just on this forum. People value different things.

Yeah, this argument has almost everything to do with personal preference.

[48009]

But statistically, most of the young/educated people from Detroit/Michigan are moving to cities such as Philadelphia, Minneapolis or Chicago. What do you think is so attractive about these cities to folks in this demographic that they couldn't find in Detroit?

Everything.

[48009]

Wait, you're here in Michigan. Do you consider yourself in the bottom tier too? Or are you telling us all who choose to stay here and try to help out, stupid, lazy, and dumb from your Chicago/Bham pedestal [[which actually you've been doing)? And here we are again with this superiority complex you have.

I'm completing my education. I have family here and would love to see the city come back, but I don't think it's possible [[in my lifetime), so my stay is temporary. Chicago will not be dethroned as the king of the Midwest, period. Indianapolis, Cleveland, Minneapolis and Pittsburgh were never as bad as current Detroit, have 10-20 year head start on Detroit, and have a stronger population. Gilbert might be able to con enough of the kids scared to move away from Mommy but very few real brains with options are signing up to see how this mess shakes out.

[Gistok]

I'm completing my education. I have family here and would love to see the city come back, but I don't think it's possible [[in my lifetime), so my stay is temporary. Chicago will not be dethroned as the king of the Midwest, period. Indianapolis, Cleveland, Minneapolis and Pittsburgh were never as bad as current Detroit, have 10-20 year head start on Detroit, and have a stronger population. Gilbert might be able to con enough of the kids scared to move away from Mommy but very few real brains with options are signing up to see how this mess shakes out.

It's a pity Leona Helmsley is dead... you could have gotten a job working for her... and then just continue to look your nose down on "the little people"....

[Spartan]

An individual's personal preferences is not really relevant to the argument.

The statistics indisputably show that more people are leaving Detroit/Michigan than coming.

Some are moving to Florida, Arizona or Nevada for retirement. Some are moving to economically healthier states such as Texas or Georgia for employment.

But statistically, most of the young/educated people from Detroit/Michigan are moving to cities such as Philadelphia, Minneapolis or Chicago. What do you think is so attractive about these cities to folks in this demographic that they couldn't find in Detroit?

I see that you like statistics... If your conclusions are true, how do you explain the 59% population growth in Detroit among 25-34 year olds from 2000-2010? [[overall population loss in Detroit: 25%, avg population growth among large cities: 26%)

src: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ess01_ST_N.htm

[48009]

I see that you like statistics... If your conclusions are true, how do you explain the 59% population growth in Detroit among 25-34 year olds from 2000-2010? [[overall population loss in Detroit: 25%, avg population growth among large cities: 26%)

src: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ess01_ST_N.htm

Wow a WHOLE two hundred 25-34 yo each year? THE CITY IS BACK! Find me Chicago's numbers -- it probably adds two hundred 25-34 yo every day.

[mwilbert]

Wow a WHOLE two hundred 25-34 yo each year? THE CITY IS BACK! Find me Chicago's numbers -- it probably adds two hundred 25-34 yo every day.

In 2010, according to the Census, Chicago had 519,074 25-34 year olds. If you added 200 per day for ten years, you would have 730,000 of them if you started with none, so no. But, in reality, Chicago had 533,139 25-34 year olds in 2000, so it actually lost 1400/year.

Thanks for playing.

[Gistok]

Mwilbert... please stop confusing people with FACTS!! It will only confuse them and make them even more incoherent...

[illwill]

This USATODAY article said the city center gained 48,000 from 2000-2010: No specific age groups noted:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...wth/57849232/1

[runnerXT]

In 2010, according to the Census, Chicago had 519,074 25-34 year olds. If you added 200 per day for ten years, you would have 730,000 of them if you started with none, so no. But, in reality, Chicago had 533,139 25-34 year olds in 2000, so it actually lost 1400/year.

Thanks for playing.

I leave back home Tuesday from visiting my gf that lives here in Chicago. Yup those are the stats. Chicago is emptying out. Aside from the 10 nice blocks the rest of the city is Cleveland light. This city offers not much at all. Anything in Chicago can be offered in Detroit except that Detroit has more energy and is not the chain loving people from Kansas which is what that 10 square blocks of nice is. Chicago's transit is a joke btw. It depressing, dirty, unreliable and dangerous.

[313WX]

I see that you like statistics... If your conclusions are true, how do you explain the 59% population growth in Detroit among 25-34 year olds from 2000-2010? [[overall population loss in Detroit: 25%, avg population growth among large cities: 26%)
src: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ess01_ST_N.htm

In 2010, according to the Census, Chicago had 519,074 25-34 year olds. If you added 200 per day for ten years, you would have 730,000 of them if you started with none, so no. But, in reality, Chicago had 533,139 25-34 year olds in 2000, so it actually lost 1400/year.

Thanks for playing.

Well first off, the analysis in that article only measures the areas within a 3 mile radius of Detroit's downtown, not the entire city. In fact, if you measure the entire city, the 25-34 year old population DROPPED from 144,323 in 2000 to 113,141 in 2010 [[a decline of 22% or31,182).

http://detroit.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

http://www.clrsearch.com/Detroit-Demographics/MI/Population-by-Age

Second, I love to use the ridiculously detailed NY Times 2010 Census Tract Mapping when monitoring Detroit's population. For the so-called desired areas in downtown/midtown [[including the New Center area, Harbortown and Lafayette Park), there are 19 census tracts. Of the 19 total tracts within this area, 12 of them experienced a decline in population. Of the 12 tracts that experienced a decline in population, 2 of then saw over 50% decline in poulation since 2000 while 3 of them saw over a 20% decline in population.

Breaking the numbers down further, these are the results

2010 Total Population in Downtown/Midtown = 37,171 [[5% of the city's total population)

Census Tract 5339 = 2,578 2010 Population [[20.8% Decline) = 3,114 2000 Population
Census Tract 5119 = 1,462 2010 Population [[35.1% Decline) = 1,975 2000 Population
Census Tract 5112 = 1,442 2010 Population [[31.7% Decline) = 1,899 2000 Population
census Tract 5202 = 2,571 2010 Population [[4.8% Growth) = 2,448 2000 Population
Census Tract 5180 = 2,264 2010 Population [[18% Growth) = 1,856 2000 Population
Census Tract 5204 = 1,835 2010 Population [[6.4% Growth) = 1,718 2000 Population
Census Tract 5203 = 2,038 2010 Population [[7.8% Decline) = 2,197 2000 Population
Census Tract 5175 = 2,192 2010 Population [[16.9% Decline) = 2,562 2000 Population
Census Tract 5225 = 1,707 2010 Population [[54.5% Decline) = 2,637 2000 Population
Census Tract 5173 = 1,943 2010 Population [[12.7% Decline) = 2,190 2000 Population
Census Tract 5208 = 1,616 2010 Population [[24.2% Growth) = 1,225 2000 Population
Census Tract 5207 = 2,233 2010 Population [[16.4% Growth) = 1,867 2000 Population
Census Tract 5172 = 1,438 2010 Population [[50.8% Decline) = 2,169 2000 Population
Census Tract 5170 = 2,360 2010 Population [[4.5% Growth) = 2,254 2000 Population
Census Tract 5171 = 1,062 2010 Population [[20.3% Decline) = 1,278 2000 Population
Census Tract 5165 = 1,404 2010 Population [[6.4% Decline) = 1,494 2000 Population
Census Tract 5166 = 2,058 2010 Population [[9.9% Decline) = 2,262 2000 Population
Census Tract 5169 = 1,991 2010 Population [[7.1% Decline) = 2,146 2000 Population
Census Tract 5167 = 2,977 2010 Population [[3.5% Growth) = 2,872 2000 Population

2000 Total Population in Downtown/Midtown = 40,163 [[4% of the city's total population in 2000)

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

So actually, in spite of 2,000 people in the 25-34 year age group since 2000, the population in downtown/midtown still declined by 7%, granted its percentage of the city's total population increased by 1%. Meanwhile, as stated before, roughly 50,000 people moved into Chicago's loop and the surrounding areas between 2000 and 2010 [[growing by roughly 36% since 2000), even though Chicago's city-wide 25-34 year old age population declined by a mere 3% between 2000 and 2010 [[a whiff compared to Detroit's decline in both its downtown population by 7% AND its 24-34 year age group population by 22% city-wide).

[313WX]

BTW, although the problems are magnified in Detroit, this is a regional problem as well.

A poster from another forum also posted some interesting statistics.

WE already know that the population of the official MSA was 4,435,000 in 1970 and today the MSA has 4,292,000 people [[thus dropping from 5th-largest to 14th-largest metro). Even Minneapolis has surpassed Detroit in GMP.

However, had Metro Detroit grown even at a modest 1.5% annual rate there would today be about 6.1 million people and would still be the 6th-largest metro. You can point to the dramatic loss of the city's population, but the truth is that the whole metro has "lost" 1.8 million people since 1970.

The fact is, not many people outside of Michigan want to invest in a region with a hollow urban core. We can boast about how "stagnant" the suburbs have been without Detroit until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that the growth in the suburbs has been stunted because Detroit is failing.

[sumas]

Mwilbert... please stop confusing people with FACTS!! It will only confuse them and make them even more incoherent...

Always amusing! In my tiny Village, we have 3 new young home owners. A white young lesbian couple,a young black couple, a young white couple.

Then we have the Capcorp group, a religious based group, affiliated with the Caputians, roughly 20 of them currently that occupies 3 homes in need of re hab. Free rent in exchange for labor and services. Sometimes we look like a University District with all the bikes and backpacks. These folk don't get counted in any census or statistic but they are here and make a difference.

[Hermod]

Always amusing! In my tiny Village, we have 3 new young home owners. A white young lesbian couple,a young black couple, a young white couple.

Then we have the Capcorp group, a religious based group, affiliated with the Caputians, roughly 20 of them currently that occupies 3 homes in need of re hab. Free rent in exchange for labor and services. Sometimes we look like a University District with all the bikes and backpacks. These folk don't get counted in any census or statistic but they are here and make a difference.

They are building a new house on my block. The new housing industtry is coming back in force, NATIONWIDE. I just showed you the proof.

[noise]

Wow a WHOLE two hundred 25-34 yo each year? THE CITY IS BACK! Find me Chicago's numbers -- it probably adds two hundred 25-34 yo every day.

200/year that completely invalidate your entire thread. Hopefully you recognize that before "completing your education".

Why don't we start comparing Detroit to London, Hong Kong, Moscow, or any other random city to move the goalposts yet again?

[bailey]

200/year that completely invalidate your entire thread. Hopefully you recognize that before "completing your education".

How does it invalidate the thread? 200 yps moved here ...out of how many graduating from college last year? Out of how many leaving the state or returning to the burbs from which they came? It seems 313wx's post above puts that 200 in context.

Why don't we start comparing Detroit to London, Hong Kong, Moscow, or any other random city to move the goalposts yet again?

Isn't one of the reasons behind the decades long exodus from the region that people are comparing Detroit/SeM to major cities and metros elsewhere and by and large choosing them over here?

Frankly I think the problem is we spend far too little time around here comparing ourselves to functioning regions and demanding ours look more like them.

[313WX]

Always amusing! In my tiny Village, we have 3 new young home owners. A white young lesbian couple,a young black couple, a young white couple.

Then we have the Capcorp group, a religious based group, affiliated with the Caputians, roughly 20 of them currently that occupies 3 homes in need of re hab. Free rent in exchange for labor and services. Sometimes we look like a University District with all the bikes and backpacks. These folk don't get counted in any census or statistic but they are here and make a difference.

The fact that these folks don't amount to a net gain in a census count is still nothing to downplay.

For every person Detroit officially loses, Detroit also loses money to keep the city functioning. For all we know, maybe 1 million people do still live in the city [[extremely unlikely, but hypothetically speaking). Some folks for example may choose to move downtown into an apartment but maintain a suburban address as their primary address for the reduced auto insurance costs. Others may have a home in Detroit as well as a suburban home they reside in, but they choose to claim the suburban residence as their primary residence to avoid Detroit's income tax. If they're not taking the census or claiming they live in Detroit, it doesn't really matter to the federal government when deciding where to allocate federal geants or retailers when they're reviewing the city for possible investment, or the city's coffers when it's not receiving their tax receipts.

[illwill]

I think the straw resident argument is pointless. I say this because this happens in EVERY city so it simply offsets itself. So-called straw residents live in Nashville, Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, New York and every other city in the country. It's impossible that every head be counted. In the in it levels out.

[48009]

313WX, thanks for the quality contributions. It's unfortunate so much of this thread turned into Detroit v Chicago, but apparently the website operator felt they needed to combine two threads. It's completely unfair to compare the two because they have nothing in common.

[313WX]

I think the straw resident argument is pointless. I say this because this happens in EVERY city so it simply offsets itself. So-called straw residents live in Nashville, Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, New York and every other city in the country. It's impossible that every head be counted. In the in it levels out.

The attempt to diminish the importance of the statistical/census data is just as droll.

Obviously not every head will be accounted for. But the fact is Detroit has drastically failed to reach the leveling point that others cities have to be able to outright dismiss the population data. So maybe only 4 people moved out of the city instead of the 5 the census counted. Even accounting for a possible margin of error, it's still highly unlikely that the population DIDN'T decline.

[JRich2425]

Not sure if this thread is still interested in answers to the original question or if we've moved in a new direction, but for what it's worth, I'd move to Detroit in a heartbeat! As a 24 year old guy, I find the city fascinating and cool. I even feel a bit of home-state pride in defending Detroit to my out of state friends that assume it's all empty production plants and 8 Mile. In fact, their negative opinion of Detroit makes it an even more attractive place to live for me, because I know it's an underdog city to people my age, and I want to be part of the revolution that shows the nation that we've got something really great happening.

Anyway... That's my two cents.

*** PS... I'm a college graduate looking for a job in youth ministry, so find me a job and I'll make my words walk and move to town right away!

[dtowncitylover]

It's completely unfair to compare the two because they have nothing in common.

Exactly. Which is why I find your demeaning posts about people who choose to stay here completely baseless. People have different tastes and different wishes on what they want to do in life. Just because they choose to stay in Detroit and try and help doesn't make them lower tier young adults, whatever the hell that means, or homesick momma's boys or daddy's girls.

Plenty of young adults across the nation are not moving to their region's respected centers. Not all young people from Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Indy [[please stop adding Indy to cities where YA are moving, it's not a great city and frankly Detroit offers a lot more), or Cleveland are moving to Chicago or NY.

[Hermod]

*** PS... I'm a college graduate looking for a job in youth ministry, so find me a job and I'll make my words walk and move to town right away!

If a Silicon Alley firm built a 2,000 employee complex in Lapeer, lots and lots of young, intellectual swingers would be moving there.

[noise]

How does it invalidate the thread? 200 yps moved here ...out of how many graduating from college last year? Out of how many leaving the state or returning to the burbs from which they came? It seems 313wx's post above puts that 200 in context.

Go back and reread the first post and try to make sense of 48009's subsequent replies. Unless you think the point is that Detroit isn't as much of a draw as Chicago...in which case, why is that even a thread?

Isn't one of the reasons behind the decades long exodus from the region that people are comparing Detroit/SeM to major cities and metros elsewhere and by and large choosing them over here?

Frankly I think the problem is we spend far too little time around here comparing ourselves to functioning regions and demanding ours look more like them.

We are talking about two separate things. Do you consider Detroit a "major" city? I don't.

Furthermore, who is the "we" you're thinking of? Do you think DetroitYes members comparing Detroit to Chicago is going to improve the region? That's where we are. I'm not a politician in Detroit. I'm not in a position to start any noticeable, worthwhile, or grand schemes. I doubt most here are. I'm here to talk about the city, but talk is a very minor part of the equation.

[48009]

Exactly. Which is why I find your demeaning posts about people who choose to stay here completely baseless. People have different tastes and different wishes on what they want to do in life. Just because they choose to stay in Detroit and try and help doesn't make them lower tier young adults, whatever the hell that means, or homesick momma's boys or daddy's girls.

Plenty of young adults across the nation are not moving to their region's respected centers. Not all young people from Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Indy [[please stop adding Indy to cities where YA are moving, it's not a great city and frankly Detroit offers a lot more), or Cleveland are moving to Chicago or NY.

What don't you understand about current Detroit being the most desperate and sad major city in the country, with a reputation of being a cesspool around the WORLD? You're seriously delusional. If everything went perfect for the next decade it would still fall short of Indianapolis. With that said, nothing ever goes perfect in Detroit; too many clowns still running the show and most of the population is helpless.