Support Gay Marriage? Then Skip Communion Says Detroit Archbishop and Canon Lawyer

[downtownguy]

You bet. But it is the single largest and most visible Christian denomination among us citizens. But size really doesn't matter.

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian morals and beliefs. Sometimes we wonder what those beliefs are. For some, they find the protestant and reformistic churches to their liking. God bless. While I am a Catholic, I sing every other year with a Presbyterian church choir. I might only attend Catholic mass 5 or 6 times in those years. Some might call that a sin. I figure at the time of my accounting for my time on earth, those sunday's spent singing with my presbyterian friends will be the least of my worries.

Well, God Bless You! When you start singing with the Muslims, the Buddists, the Hindus and the atheists, then I'll give a rat's ass.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Well, God Bless You! When you start singing with the Muslims, the Buddists, the Hindus and the atheists, then I'll give a rat's ass.

That's a pretty hollow blessing, but as I am not in a position to refuse it, I'll gratefully accept.

My point was that I am not so catholic that I discount or ignore the perspective of other Christian worshipers.

I readily admit though, that I consider myself a very Christian believer. I'm full of flaws and sin, but that is simply to be human.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Are you even Catholic? What "precept" are you referring to? I know of no precept that obligates the Catholic church to intervene in U.S. civil recognition of contracts between adults. The Catholic church is obviously against same-sex marriage, which is an entirely different issue and not relevant to the discussion [[because the Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with). The issue has nothing to do with same-sex marriage, and everything to do with separation of church and state.

Dang. I thought the entire thread and discussion was centered around the churches position on same-sex marriages [[and the relevency of accepting Holy Communion).

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process? The president calls for His blessing after darn near every public address. Must just be for show eh?

Whenever we get our collective selves in a bind, He's the first one we call upon for help.

Look. I don't want or need an intermixed church/state any more than anyone else, but to whom do we turn to determine what is right and what is wrong?

Our scientific intellect has by far surpassed our ability to discuss and make moral decisions. We are leaving our children and our grandchildren with decisions to make for which they are not equipped.

Let me give you two examples.

1. The nuclear weapon club is small, and thus far...sane. Fast forward 25 years from now. How many own the bomb then? Under what conditions do the good guys launch to prevent the bad guys from doing far more damage. And who are these good guys anyway?

2. Genetic engineering and the cloning of human beings. If we can clone a sheep, we can clone a human being. We'll be able to grow body parts for medical replacements before very long [[maybe we can do it now). Where does this process stop? Does a cloned human have a soul, or are they meat? It's a crude question, but would anyone care to answer with certainty?

How do you separate church and state when contemplating the answers to those kinds of questions? Now, I don't want the pope making those decisions for me either. I'm just saying we've got a lot of praying to do.

[Bham1982]

Dang. I thought the entire thread and discussion was centered around the churches position on same-sex marriages [[and the relevency of accepting Holy Communion).

Obviously the Catholic church doesn't recognize civil marriage. And obviously the Catholic church doesn't recognize same-sex marriage.

So what does it matter if the state recognizes contracts between Dick and Jane, Dick and Joe, or Bigfoot and Space Alien? It's of no relevance to the church. In Rome's eyes, if it isn't in the Catholic church, it isn't marriage.

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process? The president calls for His blessing after darn near every public address. Must just be for show eh?

The U.S. was founded as an anti-Papal and deeply Protestant nation, with mostly secular Founding Fathers, none of them Catholic.

The dominant religion back during our founding was Episcopal Church, and the Episcopals do perform gay marriages. Episcopals comprised the majority of our Founding Fathers.

So if you want to roll back the clock and get religion more deeply involved, looks like civil gay marriage has the official religious stamp of approval, at least here in the Episcopal U.S. And the Catholics will be sure to be suffer suspicion for their allegiance to the Pope.

[Zacha341]

Excluding the evangelical and other Christians who also tend not to endorse same sex marriage.

...looks like civil gay marriage has the official religious stamp of approval, at least here in the Episcopal U.S. And the Catholics will be sure to be suffer suspicion for their allegiance to the Pope.

[TheUsualSuspect]

In Rome's eyes, if it isn't in the Catholic church, it isn't marriage.

See Bham...maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is true. It's just too impractical. I'll have to claim personal ignorance here I guess.

The dominant religion back during our founding was Episcopal Church, and the Episcopals do perform gay marriages. Episcopals comprised the majority of our Founding Fathers.

So if you want to roll back the clock and get religion more deeply involved, looks like civil gay marriage has the official religious stamp of approval, at least here in the Episcopal U.S.

The Christian denominations which separate themselves from the catholic faith do as they please. No one should hold their breath waiting for the Catholic church to follow suit. The vatican is rarely swayed by popular opinion, I think we can probably agree on that.

And the Catholics will be sure to be suffer suspicion for their allegiance to the Pope.

I'm not sure what you meant by this comment. I suppose one can call themselves catholic without acknowledging, accepting, or agreeing with the leadership of the church. Certain Popes to be more personable than others, but they are all Peter's successors and the single most visible and powerful voice of the catholic church.

[noise]

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process?

Yes. It has no place in policy-setting or law-making.

"In God We Trust" was adopted in 1956.
"Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954.
"God Bless America" is just a patriotic song.

Whenever we get our collective selves in a bind, He's the first one we call upon for help.

I certainly do not.

Look. I don't want or need an intermixed church/state any more than anyone else, but to whom do we turn to determine what is right and what is wrong?

If you need a God for this, I wouldn't trust you to make the right decision.

Our scientific intellect has by far surpassed our ability to discuss and make moral decisions. We are leaving our children and our grandchildren with decisions to make for which they are not equipped.

Let me give you two examples.

1. The nuclear weapon club is small, and thus far...sane. Fast forward 25 years from now. How many own the bomb then? Under what conditions do the good guys launch to prevent the bad guys from doing far more damage. And who are these good guys anyway?

2. Genetic engineering and the cloning of human beings. If we can clone a sheep, we can clone a human being. We'll be able to grow body parts for medical replacements before very long [[maybe we can do it now). Where does this process stop? Does a cloned human have a soul, or are they meat? It's a crude question, but would anyone care to answer with certainty?

How do you separate church and state when contemplating the answers to those kinds of questions? Now, I don't want the pope making those decisions for me either. I'm just saying we've got a lot of praying to do.

Praying will certainly NOT answer those questions.

As an atheist, I certainly don't have a problem determining what's right or wrong. I don't need a God for that.

[jackie5275]

But the Church already doesn't recognize marriage outside of the Catholic ceremony. If I get married in a courthouse or a non-Catholic church, it never happened, according to the Catholic Church.

You must've been sleeping during catechism. If you get married in a non-Catholic church, your marriage is still recognized by the Church. It's just not a sacramental marriage. When 2 Catholics marry in a Catholic church, that marriage is also a sacrament. When a Catholic marries a non-Catholic either in a Catholic or non-Catholic church, it's still a marriage, but you don't get the sacrament.

[Zozo]

As an atheist, I certainly don't have a problem determining what's right or wrong. I don't need a God for that.

Since you are an atheist, can you explain how atheists make moral decisions? For example, can you explain ethically if things like racism, pedophilia, or sodomy are morally right or wrong?

[TheUsualSuspect]

Praying will certainly NOT answer those questions

As an atheist, I certainly don't have a problem determining what's right or wrong. I don't need a God for that.

Aw Noise, as an atheist...you really don't need God for anything. Fair enough. You must be a very strong person.

Most of us aren't so lucky. We're weak, hurt, discouraged and in many ways...broken. We look for help from our Creator.

For those of us who believe, prayer remains a powerful ally, if not for answers, than for guidance, wisdom, hope, and comfort. I believe that all prayers are heard and answered.

I didn't mean to speak for you. Beg pardon.

[jackie5275]

the Catholic church doesn't recognize same-sex marriage.

So what does it matter if the state recognizes contracts between Dick and Jane, Dick and Joe, or Bigfoot and Space Alien? It's of no relevance to the church.

It matters because if the state/nation recognize & allow gay marriage, the Church will be faced with gay folks wanting to get married in the Church. There will be, as I see it, two main reasons. 1. There are gay Catholics who would want to get married in the Church to get the sacrament of marriage. 2. There are gay people who want to test the Church to see if the Church will marry them or not.

[poobert]

I'm not sure what you meant by this comment. I suppose one can call themselves catholic without acknowledging, accepting, or agreeing with the leadership of the church. Certain Popes to be more personable than others, but they are all Peter's successors and the single most visible and powerful voice of the catholic church.

Historically, Catholics have not been treated well in this country, which still remains majority Protestant. Plenty of those Protestants will still insist Catholics are not Christians at all. I know politics make strange bedfellows and you're all giddy to vote Republican together, but wishing for a church-state combo in the U S of A as a Catholic would not be in one's best interest. So you might want to stick to the whole separation of church and state idea, unless you want to be taking orders from Billy Graham.

I say this as a Catholic: the Catholic Church has been wrong before - about denying the heliocentric universe and prohibiting autopsies, for example - and they're wrong again. They're just a little slow on the uptake sometimes. They'll get it in a few centuries.

[TheUsualSuspect]

My WSU junior daughter watched Pope Francis wash the feet of [[horrors) women during the Maundy Thursday cermony. Apparently this is traditionally a men-only symbolic event.

She texted me "I think the old coots in Rome may have gotten it right this time".

I think its a little cool that Pope Francis is shaking things up a bit among the old Vatican guard. He is quietly breaking some barriers with his example and making at least some people...just a little uncomfortable.

He's a sharp contrast to Pope Benedict, who seemed a bit lacking in the charisma department.

[Bham1982]

You must've been sleeping during catechism. If you get married in a non-Catholic church, your marriage is still recognized by the Church. It's just not a sacramental marriage. When 2 Catholics marry in a Catholic church, that marriage is also a sacrament. When a Catholic marries a non-Catholic either in a Catholic or non-Catholic church, it's still a marriage, but you don't get the sacrament.

Here we go again. Trying to hide bigotry by confusing the issue further.

You are talking about two different issues, none of which are relevant to the discussion. The first is the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage [[which is obviously considered valid in the Church, and where you need two witnesses and the Catholic ceremony).

The second is the Catholic position on Christian or other religious marriage outside of the Catholic Church [[which is considered valid on a case-by-case basis but is NOT a sacrament and for which the Church does NOT have a uniform position; there is no Jew- yes, Mormon- no, or anything like that).

The third issue [[and the only relevant one as it pertains to the same-sex marriage debate) is that of civil law. The Catholic church does NOT recognize civil marriage for ANYONE. Therefore, they have no standing in any debate on how civil authorities grant contractural rights for consenting adults. It isn't marriage to begin with [[per Catholic edict).

So, again, why is the Catholic church entering the discussion on this civil matter? It has no relevance to their formal definition of marriage.

[jcole]

From the site Catholic Wedding Help:

The Church does not recognize a civil wedding ceremony as valid when one or both people are Catholic. If a couple are married in a civil ceremony, the Catholic person[[s) are asked to refrain from receiving the Eucharist until the marriage is recognized as valid by the Church. The reason for this, in a nutshell, is that the Church recognizes marriage as a spiritual reality, not just a piece of paper or a legal formality.
If you've already been married in a civil ceremony, how can you have your marriage recognized as valid by the Church? Talk to your pastor, who will probably recommend a process called convalidation; it usually involves an expedited marriage preparation process [[to determine that there is no impediment to the marriage) and a simple celebration of the sacrament of marriage so that the consent of the couple to be married can be witnessed by the Church. Another process, called radical sanation, may sometimes be used to recognize a marriage as valid without a formal exchange of consent [[vows).

[jcole]

My WSU junior daughter watched Pope Francis wash the feet of [[horrors) women during the Maundy Thursday cermony. Apparently this is traditionally a men-only symbolic event.

She texted me "I think the old coots in Rome may have gotten it right this time".

I think its a little cool that Pope Francis is shaking things up a bit among the old Vatican guard. He is quietly breaking some barriers with his example and making at least some people...just a little uncomfortable.

He's a sharp contrast to Pope Benedict, who seemed a bit lacking in the charisma department.

While at the same time cracking down on Nuns in the US who view their calling to be that of helping the poor and the indigent. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1441344.html

So, no, the old coots didn't get it right, again.

[Zozo]

While at the same time cracking down on Nuns in the US who view their calling to be that of helping the poor and the indigent. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1441344.html.

That's quite misleading. You write as if the Vatican is cracking down on nuns who view their calling to be that of helping the poor and the indigent because they view their calling to be that of helping the poor and the indigent. If you read the article you will see that the Vatican is at odds with nuns who are bringing secular feminist practice into their vocation, and rightly so.

[TheUsualSuspect]

While at the same time cracking down on Nuns in the US who view their calling to be that of helping the poor and the indigent. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1441344.html

So, no, the old coots didn't get it right, again.

Your article says the stinging doctrinal rebuke was 4 years in the making. Pope Francis had been in his position for exactly 1 week. You're expecting a lot from the man in his 7 days on the job no?

I don't often cite Wiki for a source, but let me use their descriptive words regarding Pope Francis:

" Throughout his life, both as an individual and a religious leader, he has been known for his humility, his concern for the poor, and his commitment to dialogue as a way to build bridges between people of all backgrounds, beliefs, and faiths. Since his election to the papacy, he has displayed a simpler and less formal approach to the office, including a decision to reside in the Vatican guesthouse rather than the papal residence used by his predecessors since 1903."

Geez, you're right. Nothing to like about THAT guy.

[jcole]

When Francis turns over the archives from the Dirty War in Argentina and opens the files on the pedophile priests, I'll agree that "the old coots" got it right this time.
But, that's not what this thread is aimed at. Back to the separation of church and state.

[noise]

Since you are an atheist, can you explain how atheists make moral decisions? For example, can you explain ethically if things like racism, pedophilia, or sodomy are morally right or wrong?

The Golden Rule tends to do the trick.

[Zozo]

When Francis turns over the archives from the Dirty War in Argentina and opens the files on the pedophile priests, I'll agree that "the old coots" got it right this time.
But, that's not what this thread is aimed at. Back to the separation of church and state.

We have a real seeker of truth and justice here folks, lolz

[noise]

Aw Noise, as an atheist...you really don't need God for anything. Fair enough. You must be a very strong person.

Most of us aren't so lucky. We're weak, hurt, discouraged and in many ways...broken. We look for help from our Creator.

For those of us who believe, prayer remains a powerful ally, if not for answers, than for guidance, wisdom, hope, and comfort. I believe that all prayers are heard and answered.

I didn't mean to speak for you. Beg pardon.

I don't think it has anything to do with strength. It's mostly pragmatism.

The problem for me is the attempt to govern based on ideas I'm supposedly free from and do not share.

[TheUsualSuspect]

When Francis turns over the archives from the Dirty War in Argentina and opens the files on the pedophile priests, I'll agree that "the old coots" got it right this time.
But, that's not what this thread is aimed at. Back to the separation of church and state.

Jcole. I'm sorry your papal candidate didn't get elected.

Is there ANYONE out there who may have convinced you that "the old coots" got it right...or do you simply resent the catholic church, and all it stands for, in general?

[jcole]

We have a real seeker of truth and justice here folks, lolz

If you want to discuss the merits of Francis I as pope, start a thread in non-Detroit. This is about gay marriage and the Catholic church.

[jcole]

Jcole. I'm sorry your papal candidate didn't get elected.

Is there ANYONE out there who may have convinced you that "the old coots" got it right...or do you simply resent the catholic church, and all it stands for, in general?

I was born and raised Catholic, spent 11 years being taught by nuns and generally distrust the hierarchy of the church in recent years. I spent a lot of time in churches, singing in choirs and on my knees praying over the years, but I can't get past what the church has condoned when it comes to pedophiles, Nazis and other poor choices.
And now, I will follow my own advice and get back to the question of gay marriage. The church has no standing in government to offer an opinion as to whether or not it should be legal; they do have standing to tell The Faithful what it is that they approve of.