Gentrification?

[dmike76]

I've been over to Old Redford recently. I worked with the Blight Busters for a weekend or two last month and I was very impressed with that block. It's an oasis in a desert of ruin. Is it gentrification or local people caring about their neighborhood and taking it back from the criminal element of that area? I tend to think it's the latter.

[poobert]

Well, neighbor, as far as someone being concerned about race at all - sounds like a racist. He may be a mild one, but one nevertheless.

Sometimes a spade is a spade and a cigar is a cigar. In many cases I don't think it is necessarily economics. Most people are pretty nice to me but sometimes I get a wierd vibe like "you're okay, but I don't particularly trust you or want to know you outside of prefunctionary pleasantries." Detroit is a very provincial place and racism runs deep with many white and black folk. Take into account that while neighborhoods may be more integrated social circles are monolithic. I want to emphasize virtually everyone has been extremely nice and I have never been the victim of serious racism but the vibe is there sometimes.

[Wesley Mouch]

I've been over to Old Redford recently. I worked with the Blight Busters for a weekend or two last month and I was very impressed with that block. It's an oasis in a desert of ruin. Is it gentrification or local people caring about their neighborhood and taking it back from the criminal element of that area? I tend to think it's the latter.

What's the difference? Are the results the same in your mind? Or is there a difference other than in what one thinks is in the minds of the new residents? Is a black family from Birmingham moving into Old Redford gentrification?

As Detroit thrives, this will become an issue.

[dmike76]

Yes, I think that there is a difference. If you follow the definition of gentrification being thrown around in this thread, we are talking about forcing out people of lower income in favor of 'richer' people that take better care of the area. I am talking about people of any income class in that area fixing it up by contributing any way that they can. You don't have to make a bunch of money to care about your home and your community. In my earlier post I talked about forcing out the 'criminal element'. People of lower income aren't necessarily criminals.

[mwilbert]

I think people are just generally nervous about change; people get comfortable in their neighborhoods and are used to the way things are, but gentrification has an economic element so inevitably it has a racial one as well, economics and race not being completely independent in this country.

People taking care of their neighborhood is not gentrification, but if you have a neighborhood that is taken care of, it is more likely to be attractive to outsiders with other options, and hence more likely to gentrify.

The good news in Detroit is that there is plenty of room for everyone and even the most likely to gentrify neighborhoods have alternatives in close proximity, so prices probably won't rise very rapidly. There are comparatively few renters, who are the people most likely to be disadvantaged by gentrification, so the downside isn't great. The big challenge is encouraging people to move into these areas in the first place and making them places where both long-time residents and newcomers have a quality of life that makes them want to stay.

[ronaldj]

Sumas and I are both impressed with folk weighing in on this subject. We are Detroiters through and through. Some very thoughtful commentary. Thanks

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Read my post. I cited the 2010 Census.

Or are you claiming that Sumas' backyard anecdotal observations trump the research from hundreds of PhDs and thousands of employees working to enumerate the decennial Census?

Actually, both might very well be accurate. I'm sure Sumas is aware of what is going on in her corner of Detroit. And the census covered 2000 - 2010. By reflecting 10 years of activity, its doesn't necessarily reflect the current trends in a specific neighborhood. Or who is to say that the last couple of years have not had a different trend from the prior 10 anyway?

The racial divide truly harms the whole metropolitan area. While there is nothing necessarily wrong with an overwhelming white or black or brown neighborhood, if I could wave my magic wand and move people around, I would radically diversify much of the area.

[Bham1982]

Actually, both might very well be accurate. I'm sure Sumas is aware of what is going on in her corner of Detroit. And the census covered 2000 - 2010. By reflecting 10 years of activity, its doesn't necessarily reflect the current trends in a specific neighborhood. Or who is to say that the last couple of years have not had a different trend from the prior 10 anyway?

The Census reflects real-time conditions as of Summer 2010. It doesn't concern itself with anything prior to Summer 2010.

You're right that the data is now out-of-date, but it's a stretch to suggest that conditions have shifted so radically in 20 or so months, especially in the absense of any supporting data.

Granted, conditions may be changing on Sumas' block, and her anecdotes may be correct, but my point is there's no evidence of large-scale gentrification within city limits. Generally speaking, the city is dealing with the opposite problem.

[mwilbert]

I meant to address this in my earlier post:

Rents go up for the renters and taxes go up for the owners.

The tax part is presumably not true anymore in Michigan, given the limitations on increases in assessment, which I why I think in Detroit the downside of gentrification to neighborhood residents, at least economically, is pretty limited.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The Census reflects real-time conditions as of Summer 2010. It doesn't concern itself with anything prior to Summer 2010.

You're right that the data is now out-of-date, but it's a stretch to suggest that conditions have shifted so radically in 20 or so months, especially in the absense of any supporting data.

Granted, conditions may be changing on Sumas' block, and her anecdotes may be correct, but my point is there's no evidence of large-scale gentrification within city limits. Generally speaking, the city is dealing with the opposite problem.

Yes and no. The census population data is a snapshot as of that time, but the percentage changes documented in the census are based on the prior census. And nobody has claimed that there was any large scale gentrification within the city. The census itself is pretty useless in determining if Islandview [[or any other neighborhood) is currently seeing a small increase, and if more of that increase consists of white residents than are currently present in that area.

[corktownyuppie]

I think people are just generally nervous about change; people get comfortable in their neighborhoods and are used to the way things are, but gentrification has an economic element so inevitably it has a racial one as well, economics and race not being completely independent in this country.

People taking care of their neighborhood is not gentrification, but if you have a neighborhood that is taken care of, it is more likely to be attractive to outsiders with other options, and hence more likely to gentrify.

The good news in Detroit is that there is plenty of room for everyone and even the most likely to gentrify neighborhoods have alternatives in close proximity, so prices probably won't rise very rapidly. There are comparatively few renters, who are the people most likely to be disadvantaged by gentrification, so the downside isn't great. The big challenge is encouraging people to move into these areas in the first place and making them places where both long-time residents and newcomers have a quality of life that makes them want to stay.

I think you're spot on with this. It's not really about race. It's not really about money. Those are the places where the fear manifests because they may be the most obvious and even the most conscious thoughts arising in peoples' minds.

Change triggers an anxiety response in all of us, even if it turns out to be positive change. Hell, isn't that why middle school is such an emotionally difficult place for everyone? The social hierarchy is changing. The academic hierarchy is changing. Captain of the soccer team in 6th grade is relegated to the bench when 8th grade has come and some of the others have had their growth spurt earlier. Don't even get me started on girls in middle school.

Detroit is going through one large version of high stakes middle school. Every one is [[rightfully) afraid that everyone else is going threaten their place in the social and political hierarchy. Because everyone is scared for themselves, their survival instincts supersede their ability to come together and work toward a common goal. Every time an article is printed in the news, everyone else gets anxious that something bad is going to happen to them. And for many it will, which fosters more distrust.

In moments of fear and distrust, people gravitate toward the people who are most familiar to them. Sometimes it's age or gender. More times that's race. Most common is likely socioeconomic class.

So I take as a grain of salt peoples' emotional mutterings right now. Just like Malik's "We'll burn the city down!". Ok, I get it. You're angry. And yes, there might be protests and strikes. But let's get real. Thousands of people have no desire to go and set their own neighborhoods on fire.

"Too many white folks are moving in" is the same. It's just anxiety about uncertainty about their future.

[Detroitnerd]

I was reading Scott Martelle's new book about Detroit and it suggested that, in the 1960s, there were certain "tipping points" for neighborhoods. The research suggested that, at the time, whites wouldn't object to living in a neighborhood that was 1/4 black, but if that amount rose to more than 1/4, they might leave for another neighborhood that was 1/4 or less black. Also, again according to the research, blacks at the time felt more comfortable in a neighborhood that was at least 50 percent black. And, given these attitudes, neighborhoods were unlikely to integrate meaningfully or in any lasting way. Or something like that. I wish I had the book here now; go buy it; it's fascinating.

But in the context of this conversation, I wonder what sort of percentages are likely to cause anxiety as Detroit's demographics shift in the future. Maybe it will be complicated by other ethnicities and races, the way Hamtramck has no majority, only a collection of minorities.

I do know Detroit is changing. My mixed neighborhood on the Hamtramck/Detroit border has had some long-term white residents on the street. But now we have middle-aged white renters who moved down from Royal Oak. That's something you wouldn't have seen five years ago, I think. I know another guy who moved into a rough neighborhood up by Fenlon and Nevada, and his neighbors are cool with him. Maybe we're finally getting past all this racism bullshit. Kinda hopeful, ain't it?

[iheartthed]

I was reading Scott Martelle's new book about Detroit and it suggested that, in the 1960s, there were certain "tipping points" for neighborhoods. The research suggested that, at the time, whites wouldn't object to living in a neighborhood that was 1/4 black, but if that amount rose to more than 1/4, they might leave for another neighborhood that was 1/4 or less black. Also, again according to the research, blacks at the time felt more comfortable in a neighborhood that was at least 50 percent black. And, given these attitudes, neighborhoods were unlikely to integrate meaningfully or in any lasting way. Or something like that. I wish I had the book here now; go buy it; it's fascinating.

But in the context of this conversation, I wonder what sort of percentages are likely to cause anxiety as Detroit's demographics shift in the future. Maybe it will be complicated by other ethnicities and races, the way Hamtramck has no majority, only a collection of minorities.

I do know Detroit is changing. My mixed neighborhood on the Hamtramck/Detroit border has had some long-term white residents on the street. But now we have middle-aged white renters who moved down from Royal Oak. That's something you wouldn't have seen five years ago, I think. I know another guy who moved into a rough neighborhood up by Fenlon and Nevada, and his neighbors are cool with him. Maybe we're finally getting past all this racism bullshit. Kinda hopeful, ain't it?

One fourth sounds a bit high for the 1960s but I've heard of the tipping point too. I don't know how much relevance it still holds today though... Maybe in the Great Lakes and Northeast, but probably not too many other places.

I've lived in neighborhoods at varying levels of gentrification in Brooklyn and Manhattan and the bottom line is always money, albeit veiled in racial talk [[however, there are some neighborhoods, like many areas in Harlem, that are being gentrified in large part by black young professionals). NYC is a special case though because of the prevalence of rent-control laws coupled with zoning laws that strictly constrains new housing developments. But the main reason I don't think Detroit will ever see the same types of effects from gentrification on a large scale is because the areas of Detroit that would gentrify are the areas where not that many people of any race currently live.

[mwilbert]

But the main reason I don't think Detroit will ever see the same types of effects from gentrification on a large scale is because the areas of Detroit that would gentrify are the areas where not that many people of any race currently live.

I think this is not entirely correct. The places that are most likely to gentrify are places near the downtown-midtown corridor or the river, and places with a really nice stock of housing. Brush Park is pretty empty, and downtown has lots of buildings that could theoretically be converted to residential use, but otherwise most of the candidate areas aren't empty.

[rhythmc]

Given my reading of the account given, the woman who made the comment about additional white people moving into the neighborhood was part of a family with at least reasonable means. Interpreting it this way, I wouldn't believe her concern was a financial one. I wouldn't assume it to be racial either, but more like what others here have indicated - that it was a fear response based on changes to her level of comfort.

I've seen gentrification happening in the DC area over the last decade and while many welcome the additional tax dollars for services and new retail options, many resent the fact that many of the issues in their neighborhoods are resolved only after new residents have come into the picture. Perhaps she feels that this will reveal how little she matters [[I don't intend for this to sound as badly as it does).

[swingline]

I wouldn't assume it to be racial either, but more like what others here have indicated - that it was a fear response based on changes to her level of comfort.

If a white long time resident of Livonia expressed "discomfort" upon having black residents move into the neighborhood, plenty of black folks would claim [[rightly) that such a reaction was racist. The same standard should apply to Sumas' neighbor.

[Danny]

Some folks on this forum got the point. Gentrification is not about race, its about improving certian areas that are blighted and once filled with drug dealers, gangs, street violence, squatters, vacant and condemed buildings by eliminating low class folks and replace it with higher income folks. Downtown Detroit, Jefferson Village, Herman Gardens, Morningside, Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Woodbridge Estates, midtown and certain once blighted urban prarie ghettohoods of Detroit are being transformed into real neighborhoods once again.

In Chicago's Near North Side near the Gold Coast neighborhood. The CHA had to eliminate the Cabrini-Green Apartments Complex due to 50 years of street violence, the heavy flow of gangs turning the complexes into a drug emporium or should I say "DRUGS R US." However when new housing arouse from its urban praries, CHA and its private developers make sure that the residents of formwe Cabrini-Green apartment complexes gets first priority of those luxury homes through section 8 vouchers. The project worked and many wealthy folks are living with low-income folks creating a better urban enviroment for their families and children. The project can do the same in Detroit. Even though gentrification could be bad for low-income folks ot other low-income folks it could their savior from blight. Detroit will continue to be gentrified by any means neccessary. Private real estate companies give a hoot if Detroit is flat broke and filled with black folks, po-folks, mutants, schizos, pigeon rats, crazy street preachers and Coleman Young struggle folks. Once they can change a community for the better or for greed and money and power, Either Detroiters step in to get out of their way.


WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

For the 99 Percenters and Guy Fawkes

For Neda

For Trayvon Martin

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Cutting our grass [[note it needs it again) is just something one does as a homeowner.

SUMAS - Greetings my friend, as simple as a statement you made above and the basic fact of life that cutting ones grass is, I can remember as our neighborhood was slowly starting to change back in the 70's & 80's, homes falling into disrepair - then going vacant - then burning multiple times - then turning into urban prairie - it all started as I observed with my youthful eyes - as a failure to cut ones own grass in front of the home they occupied. In fact when the two homes next to ours went vacant for several months in 1979, my Dad [[Bless his soul) had me cut all three lawns as I did ours, I think its called pride in ones home and surrounding neighborhood.

I apoligise if my post has little or nothing to do with Gentrification

[Patrick]

Love my house, love my neighbors, making investments into our neighborhood.

Did get a pause when a neighbor's husband worried too many white folk moving in. This disturbs me.

I can't even articulate what bothers me so. We are not rich, giggle lots on that one. We cut our grass, look out for our neighbors.

What is the issue here, I don't see one. Kind of like I mind my business you mind yours but I want a street that is clean and neat. They want the same but what is this color issue?

Love my house, love my neighbors, making investments into our neighborhood.

Did get a pause when a neighbor's husband worried too many white folk moving in. This disturbs me.

I can't even articulate what bothers me so. We are not rich, giggle lots on that one. We cut our grass, look out for our neighbors.

What is the issue here, I don't see one. Kind of like I mind my business you mind yours but I want a street that is clean and neat. They want the same but what is this color issue?

Well, how would you respond if you lived in, say Sterling Heights, and a white neighbor mentioned that too many black folks were moving in?

[Wesley Mouch]

<snip>...
I've seen gentrification happening in the DC area over the last decade and while many welcome the additional tax dollars for services and new retail options, many resent the fact that many of the issues in their neighborhoods are resolved only after new residents have come into the picture. ...

Rhythmc: So the 'additional tax dollars' 'resolved' her issues. And she resents something? I would think she'd be pretty happy that her neighborhood is getting better.

[antongast]

Rhythmc: So the 'additional tax dollars' 'resolved' her issues. And she resents something? I would think she'd be pretty happy that her neighborhood is getting better.

Reading comprehension. It's a thing.

[rex]

got to watch out when whites move it. They cause a disproportionate amount of crime. Fill the prisons, dont take care of their property, allow their homes to fall into disrepair, they typically dont have much money, their kids underperform in school, high unemployment and a sense of entitlement. Yea. White moving in is a bad deal. Better head for the hills

[rex]

My neighborhood is probably 75/25. It seems appropriate as blacks probably constitute 25% of the population in the tri county area.

[Wesley Mouch]

Gentification: the word 'race' does not appear in Wikipedia's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

Race has nothing to do with it.

But since we're on the subject -- when my childhood neighborhood started seeing racial 'immigration', most of the incoming residents were of higher quality than the trash they replaced. They moved to escape low-quality members of their own race. Quality matters. And its not very strongly associated with race.