GOP threatens to cut WSU, MSU budgets even more

[ferntruth]

The only "Service" a college should provide is an education in a safe, comfortable learning environment. Any other services should not be expected/demanded/needed etc. When I go to my classes, I pay to park, I walk to the building, sit my butt down, listen/learn, then leave. The only services I use come from the people who maintain the building, teach the class, and maintain the computer network.

By the way, the posts about the republicans doing all those nasty vile things and hating the "blacks and fags" is proof of the narrowsightness of some people in this world. It makes me wonder who the truely closed minded people are.

Are you seriously denying that the Republicans have an agenda that is clearly anti-minority rights, anti-Gay and anti-immigrant? Only Republicans have the gall to be so close minded and bigoted and then turn around and accuse those they seek to oppress of the same behavior!

Oppose Christian bigotry and suddenly you are anti Christian, oppose the policies of the government and you are suddenly unpatriotic [[unless a Democrat is in office, then they consider it patriotic TO OPPOSE THE POLICIES OF THE GOVERNMENT).

You and your party have lost all credibility. You have allowed the teabaggers to take control of your party and know they seek to take control of the government.
Now, tell me I am vile for using the term "teabagger", even though that is what tea party members referred to themselves as until someone pointed out their little mistake. Since I consider it to be accurate, I continue to refer to them as such, with apologies to those into teabagging.

[[excuse the threadjack all)

[ferntruth]

A university is NOT a business, particularly a public university.

If you cut support for research, you will instantly lose all your best faculty. Your faculty ARE the university. Therefore, you would instantly destroy the quality of the university.

I agree completely, but you know if Republicans can consider healthcare a business, they certainly can consider Universities to be as well. In Republican land, everything is a business.

[Mikeg]

What type of jobs do you think the non-academic employees have? Most of them are crucial to services at the University.

Furthermore, without these non-academic services provided by the University and DEMANDED by the students, how do you think WSU's enrollment will be affected?

Why does the university need 395 non-academic, full-time equivalents in the Facilities Planning and Management Business Unit [[$50,062 avg. annual compensation) when much of those kinds of services can be purchased at a savings from outside, private companies?

What level of added-value to the University's teaching and research mission do the 465 non-academic, full-time equivalent employees of the WSU DIvision of the Provost contribute when their Division's Mission Statement is riddled with action verbs like "sets", "assists", facilitates", "interacts", "coordinates", etc.? Wouldn't you think that the Provost Division's 306 academic, full-time equivalent employees would be more than capable of providing all that "assistance" to the various WSU schools and colleges? Don't you wonder what the administrators of the individual WSU schools and colleges think about the crucialness of all that facilitation and coordinating going on at the Division of the Provost?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I response to some of the other posters on this thread, instead of asking hard questions like those above, it's just so much easier here at DY to sit back and
a) lament the rising cost of tuition
b) castigate those elected officials who dare to reduce the state appropriation to the university
c) DEMAND that non-academic spending remain the same because it's supposedly somehow a competitive advantage for attracting and maintaining student enrollment
d) call out those who dare to question whether the university has done all they can to pare back spending that is non-critical to their mission as being folks who
- want to "keep blacks in their place"
- "hate fags and hippies"
- are "cock-sucking little shits"

[guito13]

Are you seriously denying that the Republicans have an agenda that is clearly anti-minority rights, anti-Gay and anti-immigrant? Only Republicans have the gall to be so close minded and bigoted and then turn around and accuse those they seek to oppress of the same behavior!

Oppose Christian bigotry and suddenly you are anti Christian, oppose the policies of the government and you are suddenly unpatriotic [[unless a Democrat is in office, then they consider it patriotic TO OPPOSE THE POLICIES OF THE GOVERNMENT).

You and your party have lost all credibility. You have allowed the teabaggers to take control of your party and know they seek to take control of the government.
Now, tell me I am vile for using the term "teabagger", even though that is what tea party members referred to themselves as until someone pointed out their little mistake. Since I consider it to be accurate, I continue to refer to them as such, with apologies to those into teabagging.

[[excuse the threadjack all)

Please make your own thread to spill your propaganda. I consider myself more red than blue but yet I dont hate or discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, sexual preference, prefernce of coke v. pepsi, etc. I simply dislike and do not associate with idiots, and they come in all colors & flavors.

[antongast]

Please make your own thread to spill your propaganda. I consider myself more red than blue but yet I dont hate or discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, sexual preference, prefernce of coke v. pepsi, etc. I simply dislike and do not associate with idiots, and they come in all colors & flavors.

Systemic oppression has nothing whatsoever to do with your prejudices or lack thereof. If you support a political platform that oppresses groups of people, you're complicit in the oppression, no matter how many black gay friends you have.

[guito13]

Systemic oppression has nothing whatsoever to do with your prejudices or lack thereof. If you support a political platform that oppresses groups of people, you're complicit in the oppression, no matter how many black gay friends you have.

Your name suits you well :-)

I never said I support everything the 'cans or 'crats say or do. If you want to start a racism, sexism, pepsi v. cokeism thread, please do so but this thread is not about that.

[Novine]

"Why does the university need 395 non-academic, full-time equivalents in the Facilities Planning and Management Business Unit [[$50,062 avg. annual compensation) when much of those kinds of services can be purchased at a savings from outside, private companies?"

They sure can be obtained from the private sector but the savings is often elusive. That was the Robert Bobb approach at DPS and he managed to run up the existing school deficit beyond what it was when he took office.

[noise]

Why does the university need 395 non-academic, full-time equivalents in the Facilities Planning and Management Business Unit [[$50,062 avg. annual compensation) when much of those kinds of services can be purchased at a savings from outside, private companies?

What level of added-value to the University's teaching and research mission do the 465 non-academic, full-time equivalent employees of the WSU DIvision of the Provost contribute when their Division's Mission Statement is riddled with action verbs like "sets", "assists", facilitates", "interacts", "coordinates", etc.? Wouldn't you think that the Provost Division's 306 academic, full-time equivalent employees would be more than capable of providing all that "assistance" to the various WSU schools and colleges? Don't you wonder what the administrators of the individual WSU schools and colleges think about the crucialness of all that facilitation and coordinating going on at the Division of the Provost?

But instead of asking hard questions like those, it's just so much easier here at DY to sit back and
a) lament the rising cost of tuition
b) castigate those elected officials who dare to reduce the state appropriation to the university
c) DEMAND that non-academic spending remain the same because it's supposedly somehow a competitive advantage for attracting and maintaining student enrollment
d) call out those who dare to question whether the university has done all they can to pare back spending that is non-critical to their mission as being folks who
- want to "keep blacks in their place"
- "hate fags and hippies"
- are "cock-sucking little shits"

I didn't make those comments and I would appreciate a little class and common sense when quoting me in the future.

This should be an easy question for you: why are those people not needed? You seem to have intimate knowledge of their roles.

[Detroitnerd]

The lyrics of "All I Do is Vote That Way" [[sung to the tune of "If I Only Had a Brain")

I am not a racist,
A hayseed or a sexist,
Nor a zealot or a boor.
I don't hate Bengalis,
Yemenis or Somalis,
Or have trouble with the poor.
But I want lower taxes,
Even though, in practice,
No millions come my way.
No, I am not a bigot,
A crazy crank or wingnut.
All I do is vote that way.

[DetroitPole]

Why does the university need 395 non-academic, full-time equivalents in the Facilities Planning and Management Business Unit [[$50,062 avg. annual compensation) when much of those kinds of services can be purchased at a savings from outside, private companies?

What level of added-value to the University's teaching and research mission do the 465 non-academic, full-time equivalent employees of the WSU DIvision of the Provost contribute when their Division's Mission Statement is riddled with action verbs like "sets", "assists", facilitates", "interacts", "coordinates", etc.? Wouldn't you think that the Provost Division's 306 academic, full-time equivalent employees would be more than capable of providing all that "assistance" to the various WSU schools and colleges? Don't you wonder what the administrators of the individual WSU schools and colleges think about the crucialness of all that facilitation and coordinating going on at the Division of the Provost?

But instead of asking hard questions like those, it's just so much easier here at DY to sit back and
a) lament the rising cost of tuition
b) castigate those elected officials who dare to reduce the state appropriation to the university
c) DEMAND that non-academic spending remain the same because it's supposedly somehow a competitive advantage for attracting and maintaining student enrollment
d) call out those who dare to question whether the university has done all they can to pare back spending that is non-critical to their mission as being folks who
- want to "keep blacks in their place"
- "hate fags and hippies"
- are "cock-sucking little shits"

You bring up a lot of good points, to be fair, but:

I don't see how you cannot expect an emotional reaction from a party that has done everything in its power to paint itself as anti virtually everything that isn't hyper-nationalist, pro-corporate, and against any kind of government regulation whatsoever, and that people should be somehow overjoyed and trust their motivations in this instance. They've completely lost credibility with the majority of the population of this country. Yeah, the Nazis created Volkswagon, but that isn't what people remember them for.
Also people have a lot more to be pissed off about than finding ways to fire secretaries at universities. And the proposed cuts of the right go far deeper than that. Your cause is a turd in a punch bowl. Most of us are pissed about things like denying protections to gay kids and anti-science lies about HPV vaccines making girls "retarded." You want people to take your party's ideas seriously? Then elect better representatives. You put a bunch of raving lunatics literally waving guns in the air in front of us and then tell us your cuts are sensible and you're going to get run out. Get used to it.

[Mikeg]

"Why does the university need 395 non-academic, full-time equivalents in the Facilities Planning and Management Business Unit [[$50,062 avg. annual compensation) when much of those kinds of services can be purchased at a savings from outside, private companies?"

They sure can be obtained from the private sector but the savings is often elusive. That was the Robert Bobb approach at DPS and he managed to run up the existing school deficit beyond what it was when he took office.

DPS and Michigan's public schools and universities continually lean on the crutch that education shouldn't and can't be run like a business. I would counter that all of their "back office" functions [[ie, non-academic) must be run exactly like a business in order to channel as much of their precious and increasingly scarce revenue to the classrooms, research labs, etc. Until that happens, all I hear is whining, excuses and slurs for even bringing up the issue of non-academic bloat.

[English]

Speaking as a [[new) professor, if we didn't do research, then what on earth would we have to teach? My research directly informs my teaching. I don't just teach out of a textbook. I conduct and fund my own research, and I attend conferences where I hear about the latest empirical research studies and ideas. I publish my work in peer-reviewed national and international journals, read research from others published by top academic presses, and maintain a lively conversation with other scholars in my field around the world.

My students, many of whom are the first person in their family to attend college, have told me how much they appreciate having a professor who is also a researcher. Several, including two yesterday, spoke to me about their interest in attending graduate school. A decade ago, another WSU professor had that conversation with *me* when I was in my terminal master's program.

What does all this mean? Well, it means of course we don't need research universities. Everything that our species needs to know has already been thought about, theorized, and discovered. All of the problems and challenges that we face in the natural world [[science & engineering), the social world [[social sciences & professions), and within ourselves [[humanities) have been solved.

As a matter of fact, why do we need professors at all? There's always Khan Academy.

As for support staff, we certainly do feel the cuts that have already taken place. Old Main is filthy this term. The bathrooms smell like an outhouse by the time I teach my evening courses. Vendors, conference registrars, and organizations are not receiving compensation in a timely fashion, thanks to our financial secretary having to spend half her day as the receptionist for a unit with hundreds of full- and part-time faculty and staff, and thousands of students.

I work 60+ hours per week as an assistant professor. Research, teaching, advising, and light service duties take up all of those hours and more. I couldn't also run the parking office, AND food service for the dorms, AND ensure that I receive a paycheck, AND check the books back into the university library system, AND run student activities, AND...

...neither could any of my faculty colleagues. We already have enough administrative crap to do between advising and post-award grant stuff on top of teaching and research. I think everyone grumbles about the salaries of top administrators, but that's not who's getting cut. It's janitors, secretaries, bookkeepers, and administrative assistants.

To be clear, I am not complaining. I enjoy what I do. I am taking the time to clarify what is actually happening here.

[English]

DPS and Michigan's public schools and universities continually lean on the crutch that education shouldn't and can't be run like a business. I would counter that all of their "back office" functions [[ie, non-academic) must be run exactly like a business in order to channel as much of their precious and increasingly scarce revenue to the classrooms, research labs, etc. Until that happens, all I hear is whining, excuses and slurs for even bringing up the issue of non-academic bloat.

Corporate America is the poster child for bloat in this nation. I thought we established this here months ago, when people were shocked [[shocked!) that professors don't get expense accounts. Severance pay? Perks for business travel? What's that? Even deans fly coach, and certainly, all but Ivy League superstar professors do. That is, when we actually get to fly. Thanks to the 15% cut, the travel that I have to do in order to make tenure comes out of my pocket.

In fact, K-16 education runs a leaner ship than many Fortune 500 companies that stay in business by outsourcing and importing cheap, dangerous junk. Most [[no, ALL) of my friends in the corporate world not only would balk at spending thousands of dollars to do their jobs, they actually TAKE STUFF HOME without blinking an eye. Sometimes, it's actually encouraged. ALL of the K-16 folks I know, even those who suck at teaching, have bought *something* out of pocket in order to do their job. Colleges and universities are a little better, but many professors spend more on books and journal subscriptions than they do on food.

When WE take things home for our own personal use, and we're caught, we are rightfully in hot water. It's not considered cool. But we've got people on here ready to dismantle ALL public education while zipping around down in a company car, using a corporate gas card to fill it up, in order to run their personal errands.

Late-stage capitalism has turned its avaricious eye towards education because it's the next huge pot of gold to raid. That is all. It's not about school reform. It's not about educating anyone better or more efficiently. Follow the money.

[Mikeg]

I didn't make those comments and I would appreciate a little class and common sense when quoting me in the future.

You're right, I should have taken more care in separating my responses in that post, which I've since updated.

[Goose]

Systemic oppression has nothing whatsoever to do with your prejudices or lack thereof. If you support a political platform that oppresses groups of people, you're complicit in the oppression, no matter how many black gay friends you have.

i find confiscation and redistribution of wealth and income oppressive.... no matter how many rich people say they don't pay enough..... if you support a political platform that supports this, then you are in effect stealing from me.....

[antongast]

i find confiscation and redistribution of wealth and income oppressive....

Income taxes are not systemic oppression, sorry.

if you support a political platform that supports this, then you are in effect stealing from me.....

I really don't have a problem with that.

[Novine]

"DPS and Michigan's public schools and universities continually lean on the crutch that education shouldn't and can't be run like a business. I would counter that all of their "back office" functions [[ie, non-academic) must be run exactly like a business in order to channel as much of their precious and increasingly scarce revenue to the classrooms, research labs, etc. Until that happens, all I hear is whining, excuses and slurs for even bringing up the issue of non-academic bloat."

Robert Bobb contracted out plenty of operations at DPS. The result was a deficit even larger than when he started. Outsourcing those operations doesn't guarantee savings as Bobb's tenure demonstrated. But don't let the facts get in the way of your little speech.

[firstandten]

Read my quote above, if they are losing money via. research, cancel it. If they are still losing money when simply performing the role teaching then I believe they should have the right to raise tuition to the appropriate levels.

Problem is many universities are research universities that is their primary focus, their reason for existence.

Also universities are more than just a classroom and a teacher. Think about what it would take to operate a university the size of Michigan State. Tuition alone can't cover all the expenses needed to operate a place like that.

One needs to look at higher education as an investment with a payoff of a more efficient, technologiically advanced society rather solely in dollars and cents.

[noise]

You're right, I should have taken more care in separating my responses in that post, which I've since updated.

Thank you. It is appreciated.

"Non-academic" staff is a misleading term, as many non-academic staff members serve a very important academic service. In the libraries, for example, most employees are non-academic. Without them, the libraries would not function.

[Thames]

Thanks to the 15% cut, the travel that I have to do in order to make tenure comes out of my pocket.

Whose pocket should it come out of?

[noise]

Whose pocket should it come out of?

The employer who requires it. That seems fairly straightforward. If you don't want to pay for it, don't require it. Then just watch the quality of your professors plummet.

[English]

The employer who requires it. That seems fairly straightforward. If you don't want to pay for it, don't require it. Then just watch the quality of your professors plummet.

Exactly. I don't see many people who work for a company in the private sector funding their own business travel.

Then again, people think professors make far more than we do. I am startled by the number of people who believe we make six figures. Outside of the elite public and Ivy League universities, very few of us do. WSU does very well compared to institutions of similar rank, but if I'd remained in public school teaching, I would have almost certainly made more money.

It's not about the money for most of us. It is, however, about the money for those who have a chip on their shoulder because of their own bad educational experiences. People have bad experiences with doctors, lawyers, bankers, and even contractors, but they're not trying to dismantle hospitals, courts, Wall Street [[we wish), or the construction industry.

Follow the money.

[Mikeg]

......"Non-academic" staff is a misleading term, as many non-academic staff members serve a very important academic service. In the libraries, for example, most employees are non-academic. Without them, the libraries would not function.

Since you cited them as being misleadingly classified, let's simply look at how many librarians there are in the budget. In the 2010 WSU budget, the Division of the Provost allocated 149.2 non-academic, full-time equivalents to the University Libraries Business Unit.

I wonder if management in the Provost Division has ever benchmarked their library staffing levels against other types of public libraries that do not have the luxury of raising user fees/tuition to cover reductions in taxpayer-funded appropriations? I doubt it because on pg. 100 in their section of the 2010 budget document, the Provost Division makes clear their peanut butter approach for handling their portion of the mandated-from-above, permanent budget reductions: "University Libraries will decrease its budget by $97,500, through salary reductions for technicians" and on pg. 102 they only show a 1.0 full-time equivalent reduction from the previous budget year.

So let me offer this crude attempt at a partial benchmarking. According to their 2010-2011 budget, the Sterling Heights public library has 20 full-time and 22 part time employes [[approx. 31 full-time-equivalents) to service 52,000 registered borrowers and manage a collection of 240,000 materials. In 2009, they handled 150,000 reference questions and processed the circulation of 625,500 items during 581,000 visits.

Scaling that up from 31 to 149.2 full-time equivalent employees, a linear extrapolation indicates they could theoretically handle 7.2 million reference requests and process the circulation of 3.0 million items during 2.8 million visits. I have no comparable data about the current annual workload of the WSU Libraries business unit, but I doubt that it is anywhere close to that extrapolation.

[noise]

For the record, librarians are considered academic staff. It's the assistants & clerks who are not. The recent budget cuts saw a loss of multiple non-academic staff & administrators in the library system.

[noise]

Also, comparing academic libraries to public libraries is apples to oranges. Comparatively speaking, in academics, WSU is lean.