Black influx impacts school choice in Detroit suburb

[Mr. Houdini]

There was a black kid or two in my school. So what.

[mwilbert]

It might be better if schools were federally funded, then, instead of funded by local millages...

As noted earlier, schools in poorer districts in Michigan are not primarily funded by local millages anyway. The main resources that are being withdrawn are involved parents and well-behaved/higher-performing students. Unfortunately there is no funding source that can make up for that, but there is a lot of evidence it is important. See this column from the NYT the other day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/op...22herbert.html

I would also recommend this article on ways to support disadvantaged parents:

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/6247

[bartock]

It might be better if schools were federally funded, then, instead of funded by local millages...

Even if it were federally funded, there would be no way in my opinion to constitutionally tell a local municipality what they can or can not vote to spend their money on or increase taxes for. Michigan is fairly even as it comes to spending on schools right now, if people don't want to "millage up" more money for schools, as we have seen the last couple of years they've voted not to. Not sure the fed would be doing it much different.

[bartock]

There was a black kid or two in my school. So what.

I think that was the point of some of the earlier posts and the "tipping points." "If there is a black kid or two in my school, so what, but if there are 20-30 then what's happening to our schools?"

[mwilbert]

Even if it were federally funded, there would be no way in my opinion to constitutionally tell a local municipality what they can or can not vote to spend their money on or increase taxes for. Michigan is fairly even as it comes to spending on schools right now, if people don't want to "millage up" more money for schools, as we have seen the last couple of years they've voted not to. Not sure the fed would be doing it much different.

The federal government could offer to pay $X per student in a district, and reduce X by whatever amount the district raised itself. If X were fairly high, that would probably pretty much equalize district spending. Of course, you could spend money on stuff outside the district like libraries or club sports or whatever else you wanted to enrich the lives of the kids in the more affluent areas.

I am not saying anything like that should be done, just that it could be.

[Det_ard]

Of course, it's much easier to be there for your kid when you don't have to work three jobs to keep food on the table.

True, but that doesn't square with the common wisdom that the true rate of un- and underemployment in Detroit is probably north of 35%.

In this and subsequent comments you seem to be painting with a rather broad brush. You're doing it based on class [[income/wealth) and not race, but the technique is the same and it's just as unfair and inaccurate.

IMO race and class-based generalizations are force-fit over what's really more of a set of attitudes and behaviors that isn't really "culture" in my mind but that's the best term I can come up with. The disruptive, unmotivated, failing student/parent team can come in any race or class as can the motivated, disciplined, successful student/parent team. In my experience it is correlated to a degree with race and class but not enough to make stereotyping valid so why go there.

Whatever the source of the problem students, if I find enough of any background in my kids' classes I'm looking for a solution that probably involves a different school. Once you get a non-trivial level of disruption and distraction from learning, all the kids suffer and I won't sacrifice my kids' education for anything.

[DetroitDad]

The number one question my wife and I get isn't whether we will be staying and send my daughter to an under performing school district, but rather whether we will be send our daughter to an all black school.

[Detroitnerd]

You guys have me thinking. I live in a mixed neighborhood and when I see kids doing something bad, I yell at them. They are surprised, then they stop the bad thing they are doing, and they move along. Being part of a community means being in loco parentis sometimes. And I think that's often discounted. Kids need to be corrected by somebody, and when you pull yourself out of a neighborhood just because the kids there need rules and order, don't be surprised when they grow up and have children who are even more poorly behaved.

Call it weird if you want, that some older white dude screaming at kids considers himself a community asset. But then I remember when adults yelled at me when I was in the wrong, and they actually helped. See, it ain't all "each one teach one" and "loving support for our blessed children." Sometimes you gotta yell and scream and stuff.

What I often hear from a lot of white people is, "These kids will shoot at you." I haven't been shot once. And another thing, white folks: Your children need to be tougher. That's right: Your soft, pampered, lily-white children have something to learn from tough kids too. Because no matter how many "high-performing schools districts" and "outside activities" you put your kids through, they will never be as smart as they can be unless they know how life is. No matter how much Gymboree and Sunny D you pump into them, they will never be as strong as they can be unless they're confronted with real life.

Actually, we should all be together, learning together, fighting together, screaming and yelling at each other and, finally, understanding each other. To hell with that "beautiful mosaic of humanity" nonsense. You want a home? A community? A future? All our destinies are tied up together. Might as well stop running and start fighting.

[bartock]

The number one question my wife and I get isn't whether we will be staying and send my daughter to an under performing school district, but rather whether we will be send our daughter to an all black school.

I'm surprised people would say that. A more believable question would be whether you are sending your daughter to DPS, which implies both of your statements.

[gazhekwe]

Tipping point, 40%, followed by "the schools are going down," followed by White flight. I heard it in the 60s and 70s in Detroit, in the 90s in Southfield, and so on. It is just as obviously fear of race mixing now as it was back then. Come on, people, let's get together now... We don't have to love one another but we need to stop the fear.

[bartock]

You guys have me thinking. I live in a mixed neighborhood and when I see kids doing something bad, I yell at them. They are surprised, then they stop the bad thing they are doing, and they move along. Being part of a community means being in loco parentis sometimes. And I think that's often discounted. Kids need to be corrected by somebody, and when you pull yourself out of a neighborhood just because the kids there need rules and order, don't be surprised when they grow up and have children who are even more poorly behaved.

Call it weird if you want, that some older white dude screaming at kids considers himself a community asset. But then I remember when adults yelled at me when I was in the wrong, and they actually helped. See, it ain't all "each one teach one" and "loving support for our blessed children." Sometimes you gotta yell and scream and stuff.

What I often hear from a lot of white people is, "These kids will shoot at you." I haven't been shot once. And another thing, white folks: Your children need to be tougher. That's right: Your soft, pampered, lily-white children have something to learn from tough kids too. Because no matter how many "high-performing schools districts" and "outside activities" you put your kids through, they will never be as smart as they can be unless they know how life is. No matter how much Gymboree and Sunny D you pump into them, they will never be as strong as they can be unless they're confronted with real life.

Actually, we should all be together, learning together, fighting together, screaming and yelling at each other and, finally, understanding each other. To hell with that "beautiful mosaic of humanity" nonsense. You want a home? A community? A future? All our destinies are tied up together. Might as well stop running and start fighting.

Shit, I'm just happy my kid LOVES playing outside. Talk about a minority group...

[DetroitDad]

I'm surprised people would say that. A more believable question would be whether you are sending your daughter to DPS, which implies both of your statements.

My daughter isn't school age yet. That question is worded the way I stated above, more times than I can really remember. This is extremely common.

A lot of young people seem to think racism is dead, like my wife did. I think people forget that it wasn't that long ago that racism and segregation was very relevant. Enough of those people didn't just go away, they are still alive. If old views die hard, than it's reasonable to believe that a number of them still have held onto some of those beliefs, even if they don't talk about them.

[mwilbert]

Tipping point, 40%, followed by "the schools are going down," followed by White flight

Except that the tipping point was way less than 40% back in the 60s and 70s. By the time the schools were down to 60% white the flight had been on for years.

[Augustiner]

True, but that doesn't square with the common wisdom that the true rate of un- and underemployment in Detroit is probably north of 35%.

The unemployed are putting food on the table somehow, and I don't think it can be safely assumed that living on the margins and participating in some form of underground economy necessarily affords more free time for the kids than an ordinary minimum-wage job.

In this and subsequent comments you seem to be painting with a rather broad brush. You're doing it based on class [[income/wealth) and not race, but the technique is the same and it's just as unfair and inaccurate.

That's fair. I thought it was clear that I was trying to point out an example of how guito's assumptions about inner-city parenting could be flawed, not to provide a thorough assessment of exactly what inner-city parents do and how they live. Undoubtedly, some percentage are just incompetent/apathetic, and would be equally incompetent/apathetic if they were middle-class, white, and suburban.

The disruptive, unmotivated, failing student/parent team can come in any race or class as can the motivated, disciplined, successful student/parent team.

I think the effects are magnified by race and class. Also, there is a difference between how society reacts to individual actions that fit neatly into prevalent negative stereotypes of a given race or class versus individual actions that don't.

And then, of course, you get into the issue of societal incentives for motivation, discipline, and success, which play out rather idiosyncratically in communities with underperforming school systems and extremely high unemployment.

Once you get a non-trivial level of disruption and distraction from learning, all the kids suffer and I won't sacrifice my kids' education for anything.

I don't expect you to.

[Buy American]

Yup. But the crime would not go up as much, the quality of the school would not decrease as much, and the property values would not go into freefall without white families removing their resources from the pool.

Why do you think they leave?

[Detroitnerd]

Why do you think they leave?

Fear. As usual, fear is the enemy. Fear and flight enlarge and aggravate the problem. And then 10 years later it can be repeated.

Of course, none of this really bothers the people in charge. They make lots of money off of people's fears.

[Kevgoblue]

Self fulfilling prophecy.

When there are 2 black families on the block whites brag about the "diverse" neighborhood they live in. When that number changes to 4, the "For Sale" signs start popping up. It doesn't matter that the new pioneers typically maintain their property at or above the level of the neighborhood, folks are thinking that they're going to be ahead of the curve on the White Flight agenda and move before property values tank. But when suddenly 6 homes are up for sale on the same block property values tank.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

Then people of lower socioeconomic means move into the neighborhood. Then quality of life begins to decline.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

[swingline]

We all see life through our own experiences. Why do you care if people think you are a racist? If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't care what people thought of me. Own your perspectives and the way you see the world.

You have to realize that for every action, there is an equal, opposite reaction. It is a basic, universal principle. A few thoughts follow:

1) Yes, there are a LOT of rowdy and rude kids from Detroit. But not all Detroit kids are. I taught Detroit kids for six long years and never had a problem. I've taught at an exemplary suburban school and I taught at Cass Tech. Give me Cass any day of the week. The kids were bright, quick, and eager in a way that my suburban kids weren't. I'd say more about this, but then some folks would get really insulted, so in the interest of being a kinder, gentler English, I'll refrain.

.

English, you are certainly speaking truth about Cass and the potential experience for students there. The problem, please forgive my bluntness, is that Cass and its DPS peer, Renaissance HS, are such outliers, achievement-wise, for schools with majority African American enrollment. They bear no resemblance to the educational experience to be found in any other majority black high school in the state. The Cass/Renaissance MME scores are in the 80 percentile range for the entire state; no other majority black high school scores above the 55 percentile. Almost all black schools' scores place them in the bottom one-third.

Racism exists and no doubt would play a role in the decisions of many white families if faced with the question about to do when their child's school starts "changing." But Michigan has yet to experience a school that has gone from a negligible black enrollment to one with 33% or more black enrollment and also seen achievement improve. Likewise, very few high achieving schools suffer from chronic discipline and safety problems, while very few low achieving schools have none of these problems. Parents are entitled to consider performance metrics when making choices for their children.

IMHO, the issue of closing the achievement gap in American education is much more important than trying to figure out how to persuade white families to stay put in "changing" schools. In fact, this issue is just as important to the future of SE Michigan as the state budget debate, mass transit and economic development.

[English]

English, you are certainly speaking truth about Cass and the potential experience for students there. The problem, please forgive my bluntness, is that Cass and its DPS peer, Renaissance HS, are such outliers, achievement-wise, for schools with majority African American enrollment. They bear no resemblance to the educational experience to be found in any other majority black high school in the state. The Cass/Renaissance MME scores are in the 80 percentile range for the entire state; no other majority black high school scores above the 55 percentile. Almost all black schools' scores place them in the bottom one-third.

Racism exists and no doubt would play a role in the decisions of many white families if faced with the question about to do when their child's school starts "changing." But Michigan has yet to experience a school that has gone from a negligible black enrollment to one with 33% or more black enrollment and also seen achievement improve. Likewise, very few high achieving schools suffer from chronic discipline and safety problems, while very few low achieving schools have none of these problems. Parents are entitled to consider performance metrics when making choices for their children.

IMHO, the issue of closing the achievement gap in American education is much more important than trying to figure out how to persuade white families to stay put in "changing" schools. In fact, this issue is just as important to the future of SE Michigan as the state budget debate, mass transit and economic development.

It's fine to be blunt. Difficult times call for plain, real talk. The problem is that no one in the entire country has figured out how to educate poor and working class Black, Latino, and Native American kids en masse. No one. All of the successes, like Cass and Renaissance, like Bates and Golightly, like Whitney Young in Chicago, and a few dozen schools I could name, select for students' academic ability, deportment, and parent involvement. So does KIPP, the Harlem Children's Zone, etc. They also tend to be smaller, high personnel and resource investment contexts -- even Cass Tech is really several "schools within a school" due to their curriculum majors.

This is every young educational researcher's bread and butter right now, including mine. It is part and parcel of a larger inability to decide as a nation what we do with the swelling ranks of the underclass. No one has any answers, but one day, we will not be able to put things off any longer. Our future as a country depends on successfully integrating these kids and their families into society. If we do not, we will go the way of ancient Rome.

I also agree with you that chasing white middle-class families down is beside the point. There is some evidence that black kids don't do all that well in majority-white schools, either. The well-heeled suburban school where I taught mid-decade had a lower black graduation rate than DPS did. I was completely shocked by the conditions for these kids, their despair and complete alienation from mainstream school culture. Even in DPS, schools that wouldn't prepare you for college would at least let you be in the band. There was always some teacher who'd put up with you. Because you had to have a 3.0 GPA for all extracurriculars in this particular suburban school, the vast majority of Black and Latino students were excluded, and those who made the bar tended to be first-generation immigrants. Again, very consistent with all the data from many, many studies.

[Red Devil]

If we do not, we will go the way of ancient Rome.

I don't think we will go the way of ancient Rome but more the way of a country like Mexico or Brazil, where the wealthy live wonderful lives, the middle/working classes struggle to get by, and the underclasses become more destitute by the day.

[Novine]

"The problem is that no one in the entire country has figured out how to educate poor and working class Black, Latino, and Native American kids en masse. No one."

Not to take away from your point. But why do you limit this to "minorities"? Go down to eastern Kentucky or West Virginia and see the impact poverty has on the educational success of poor and working class white people. You'll see generations of poverty as endemic and persistent as inner-city America.

[English]

"The problem is that no one in the entire country has figured out how to educate poor and working class Black, Latino, and Native American kids en masse. No one."

Not to take away from your point. But why do you limit this to "minorities"? Go down to eastern Kentucky or West Virginia and see the impact poverty has on the educational success of poor and working class white people. You'll see generations of poverty as endemic and persistent as inner-city America.

No, you're right. Point well taken.

I'd even submit that we're doing a worse job educating lower middle class white kids. Did everyone see the article last month about Michigan high schools' poor rate of college readiness?

The sad thing is that I think things will get worse before they get better. I know throwing money at the problem isn't going to make it go away, but 60 kids per class?

[adamjab19]

Now that we've got that
My child had parent / teacher conferences last night. My child goes to one of the top performing schools in the region. At his school there's minimal concerns over poor behavior or disrespectful kids. My child's school is also 30-40% black. Guess what? When I got there I couldn't even find a spot and had to park across the street. The building was filled with parents, both black and white.
His school is successful because it's in an affluent area with disproportionately high numbers of educated residents. It's successful because the vast majority of these parents hold high expectations of their children.
Given the racial makeup of the region, it is probably fair to guess that quite a few of the black families came from Detroit. Obviously that alone is not the factor which is causing poor academic performance.

I say it's not the color of the skin it's the lack of "normal" social graces with poor people. Black, white, green or brown schools in, and kids from poor areas and families make a good school/area go bad. Hell even when I was in school 15 years ago it was the poor kids acting like bully's and causing general distress among students and teachers.

My mom is a school secretary in UCS and sees it too and my friend teaches at Dakota and sees it with the new influx and availability of houses/apartments in these areas that the ghetto people [[whites or blacks) are moving in and slumming up.

Let's make it clear. I feel most people like diversity they just don't want to deal with the poor half of the population no matter the color of their skin. They just don't act right. Ask any "white" and that area is Hazel Park or wherever. Ask any "black" and it's the ghetto "blacks" from Detroit. And don't tell me otherwise. I have heard from black people as to how ashamed they are of how some black people act and same with white people and our white trash types.

Of course the only way to fix this problem is state mandated chastity belts for those living in the state poverty level. Or classes on how to act when transferring from one way of living to the next. You know, show some of these people around a bed bath and beyond and show them how to measure for some curtains instead of the daily newspaper or keeping their legs shut if they can barely afford anything. They just simply lack REASONING and LOGIC.

[East Detroit]

They just simply lack REASONING and LOGIC.

Or they lack motivation and hope because they've been dismissed for generations and see few examples of someone from their group being given opportunity.

[reddog289]

At a now closed school I used to work at in the suburbs. There were a few kids who went there for a period of time when DPS was on strike or something of that sort. I was told that those kids were well behaved and I know that my co worker hated to see them leave when they went back to DPS. That school was one of the mixed schools in the district.
I work at 2 schools in the same district. One I have worked at for close to 8 yrs. It gained most of the kids from the closed school I worked at. It also has a higher hispanic population. It is mixed as the rainbow collition. Yet it is always dirtier after school then the school I work at "across the tracks".
Both have all day kindergarten, Which I think is a joke.Just another term for free day care. I think the parents have a strong influance on the behavior of their kids. As Carl the Janitor said in the Breakfast Club He seen and heard it all.
Time and time again. I have seen parents pull their kid out of public school and then a year or so later they return.And to use the term and risk being PC, Black and White,They have all did this.
One last thing. I am glad I don't have any school aged children left in my house.It cuts down on the head hunting junk mail from neighboring districts wanting my kid in their schools. Educating kids is a BIG BUSINESS thats what I have found out in the 10 years I have been employed by the schools.