What light rail will do for Detroit

[ghettopalmetto]

You keep coming back to that retort and for some reason what is not getting through to you is that very few people think that Detroit is just fine. The problem is the solution as proposed is a fucking joke...its a novelty that will serve very few. It's not going to make jobs in the suburbs more accessible to those in the city without cars. It's not going to cause some great migration of people or businesses from Big Beaver or Southfileld...or where ever to Woodward. It's not going to make bar-hopping any easier, because someone is still going to have to drive to the line. It's a street level people mover. It's inevitable failure as anything other than a parking shuttle will simply reinforce the damage to the idea of real regional mass transit that the original People Mover did. The only saving grace here is at least the first part [[and likely only part to get built) is getting lots of private funds.

Well, you think what you want. Detroit is the way it is for a reason, don't you think? The status quo is not an option if Detroit is to survive.

While you're busy Trying to Not Fail, other cities around the world are Trying to Succeed--and they are. With bass-alf hackwards thinking like yours, it really is no wonder that Detroit's children are fleeing to Chicago and the East Coast at the first opportunity. No one hellbent on succeeding is going to tolerate the litanies of excuses--they just vote with their feet and take their earning power elsewhere. Think about that.

[bailey]

Well, you think what you want. Detroit is the way it is for a reason, don't you think? The status quo is not an option if Detroit is to survive.

While you're busy Trying to Not Fail, other cities around the world are Trying to Succeed--and they are. With bass-alf hackwards thinking like yours, it really is no wonder that Detroit's children are fleeing to Chicago and the East Coast at the first opportunity. Think about that.

Ok.. I'm not sure I can use any smaller words to make it clear to you. but, I'm going to try....very, very few people think the status quo is "fine", or "good", or "acceptable". I would think the only ones that do are the nutbags at BAMN.

What I am very simply saying is that the solutions being proffered are stupid. They will not result in any change to the status quo. They will, in fact, likely make it worse as they will sink scarce resources into a plan destined for failure and reinforce attitudes around here that mass transit is a boondoggle and a cash sucking blackhole.

I am not saying "Detroit doesn't need mass transit because it's doing just fine". I'm saying don't blow what little goodwill is out there for building something like this by building the stupid, half ass, ridiculous waste of time that is proposed.

I am saying, for once I'd like to see this area do it right the first time. I understand that is a lot to ask...I mean, basic competence seems to be a goal just out of reach around here...but one can hope.

[iheartthed]

That is a very true statement, but I've bolded and reddened the key word.

In real life, what happens is a not-even-statistically-significant portion of the population which actually lives along the streetcar network uses it - at a greatly subsidized rate and at the expense of the vast majority of the population, who will never use it but nonetheless get stuck paying the bills to keep it running. The whole idea of "thousands more people" therefore becomes a mute point.

So? Detroit homeowners and renters are stuck paying for parks located in the suburbs that the majority of them don't use.

[ghettopalmetto]

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Ok.. I'm not sure I can use any smaller words to make it clear to you. but, I'm going to try....very, very few people think the status quo is "fine", or "good", or "acceptable". I would think the only ones that do are the nutbags at BAMN.

What I am very simply saying is that the solutions being proffered are stupid. They will not result in any change to the status quo. They will, in fact, likely make it worse as they will sink scarce resources into a plan destined for failure and reinforce attitudes around here that mass transit is a boondoggle and a cash sucking blackhole.

I am not saying "Detroit doesn't need mass transit because it's doing just fine". I'm saying don't blow what little goodwill is out there for building something like this by building the stupid, half ass, ridiculous waste of time that is proposed.

So how can something work in hundreds of cities around the world, but not Detroit? Does water flow uphill there or something?

Detroit's problem all along is that it invests money in the WRONG shit. Endless freeways, bread-and-circuses, creating a theme-park downtown where billionaires profit at public expense, demolition projects--basically anything that DOESN'T provide a return on investment. Now, something comes along that will most definitely provide a return on investment, and serve as the backbone for future growth, and you cry that "We can't afford this!" I'm telling you, flat-out--if cities in emerging economies can afford extensive tram networks that blanket their cities, Detroit certainly can afford one lousy line that reaches 8 Mile Road. It's just a matter of priorities--do you want to have Super Bowls and Final Fours and stadiums and the Grandest, Most Landcapingest Lightedest Parking Lots in the World, or a city that works?

And do you really mean to imply that Detroit doesn't need construction jobs??? What's more expensive--building a rail line, or keeping a couple hundred people on the unemployment rolls? Never mind that one of these two options provides a permanent asset.

I don't know what to tell you. It seems like you've already given up, in which case you need to politely step aside, and let some real MFers get shit done.

[bailey]

So how can something work in hundreds of cities around the world, but not Detroit? Does water flow uphill there or something?

Detroit's problem all along is that it invests money in the WRONG shit. Endless freeways, bread-and-circuses, creating a theme-park downtown where billionaires profit at public expense, demolition projects--basically anything that DOESN'T provide a return on investment. Now, something comes along that will most definitely provide a return on investment, and serve as the backbone for future growth, and you cry that "We can't afford this!"

I don't know what to tell you. It seems like you've already given up, in which case you need to politely step aside, and let some real MFers get shit done.

OMFG...are you this dense or are you just fucking with me? What is being proposed IS NOT MASS TRANSIT. it's 12 miles of track to be built on a TWENTY FIVE YEAR time frame.

I am trying to figure out why you are defending this half assed people mover proposal. You state correctly that Detroit spends on the wrong things... How is planning a transit system that relies primarily on buses dressed up as trains NOT spending on the wrong things? how is planning a sytem that will get no one out of their cars NOT spending on the wrong things? How is planning a system that, upon completion- in 30 fucking years, most regions would look at as simply Phase I, NOT spending on the wrong things?

I AM NOT SAYING WE CAN'T AFFORD IT... I AM SAYING WE CAN'T AFFORD TO FUCK IT UP.

You're right though, I have pretty much given up. Why? because, like you ...and seemingly most people that post here... I left. [[I am back...but my job is not dependent on being here....so I may leave again) I left...and will probably leave again because I can see that this area will never change. It will always be run by the dullards and racists and the anti-city/anti-suburb provincials. But, like living in any third world region, there are charms that make it livable...just as long as one isn't tied to the area's fortunes.

[bailey]

So? Detroit homeowners and renters are stuck paying for parks located in the suburbs that the majority of them don't use.

so? I'm stuck paying for a Zoo I never go to and a community college system [[WCCCD) 2 people from my city went to.

People are taxed to pay for a lot of shit they don't use. If you want to start playing that game, Detroit is going to come out a loser every day of the week and twice on sunday.

[ghettopalmetto]

OMFG...are you this dense or are you just fucking with me? What is being proposed IS NOT MASS TRANSIT. it's 12 miles of track to be built on a TWENTY FIVE YEAR time frame.

It seems like you're misinformed. A light rail line on Woodward would not take 25 years to construct. If I'm not mistaken, you're even bitching about the privately-funded 3-mile segment from Campus Martius to Midtown. No one is even seriously talking about the ham-handed bus "rapid" transit idea [[yet). Please clarify what it is you're complaining about.

If you think it's not aggressive enough, or you don't like the bus idea, or you think the time-frame is too long, contact your state representatives, and tell them you're tired of living in the Third World. But then again, even South American nations have better transit service than Detroit.

I agree--Detroit can't afford to screw this up. Which is why it needs to be pushed through, and planned and executed well. Everything about it needs to be first-class. Not gold-plated, but *competent*. And as I've said, there are two approaches: you can try to Not Fail, or you can try to Succeed.

[iheartthed]

so? I'm stuck paying for a Zoo I never go to and a community college system [[WCCCD) 2 people from my city went to.

And plenty of people who live in Detroit pay for a zoo that they never travel into Oakland County to actually use.

People are taxed to pay for a lot of shit they don't use.

Including people who live in Detroit. Which is exactly my point. People in Detroit paid for roads like M-5 and expansions to Hall Road, and many of them will never even use those roads in their lifetime.

So bitching about putting tax money towards a transit system falls on deaf ears, as far as I'm concerned. Especially when the system has as good a chance as any of these others gimmick projects to stabilize the region from perpetual decline.

[bailey]

It seems like you're misinformed. A light rail line on Woodward would not take 25 years to construct. If I'm not mistaken, you're even bitching about the privately-funded 3-mile segment from Campus Martius to Midtown. No one is even seriously talking about the ham-handed bus "rapid" transit idea [[yet). Please clarify what it is you're complaining about.

If you think it's not aggressive enough, or you don't like the bus idea, or you think the time-frame is too long, contact your state representatives, and tell them you're tired of living in the Third World.

The SEMCOG proposal has LRT not making it to 12mile road until 2035. The rest of system is dependent on BRT a/k/a buses dressed to look like trains.

My problem with the 3 miles of track currently being proposed as phase one is that It's likely the only track that will get laid.

My state congressmen are apparently more concerned about fireworks legislation than the RTA. and my US rep is Momma Kilpatrick...so I've pretty much resigned to the fact that nothing will ever be done.

[ghettopalmetto]

The SEMCOG proposal has LRT not making it to 12mile road until 2035. The rest of system is dependent on BRT a/k/a buses dressed to look like trains.

My problem with the 3 miles of track currently being proposed as phase one is that It's likely the only track that will get laid.

My state congressmen are apparently more concerned about fireworks legislation than the RTA. and my US rep is Momma Kilpatrick...so I've pretty much resigned to the fact that nothing will ever be done.

Over the years, I've learned to take SEMCOG with a very large grain of salt. These were also the folks pushing for a $1.5 billion expansion of I-75, that would save drivers a whopping 60 seconds when completed [[in the short term). Let's just say they ain't the most forward-thinking people.

It's my opinion [[don't ask what I base it on--it's just a hunch) that when a Woodward Light Rail line opens, people around the region will be clamoring for more of it. You'll see how quickly SEMCOG revises the 2035 number.

[professorscott]

Over the years, I've learned to take SEMCOG with a very large grain of salt. These were also the folks pushing for a $1.5 billion expansion of I-75, that would save drivers a whopping 60 seconds when completed [[in the short term). Let's just say they ain't the most forward-thinking people.

It's my opinion [[don't ask what I base it on--it's just a hunch) that when a Woodward Light Rail line opens, people around the region will be clamoring for more of it. You'll see how quickly SEMCOG revises the 2035 number.

Of course it's possible nothing will get built at all, and if that happens, I'm going to blame the mentality so prevalent on this board that says, "unless we can build all of what we need - let's never build any of what we need!"

I say, 3.4 miles is better than 0.0 miles, and if that's all we get for a while, oh well! Detroit wasn't destroyed overnight nor by one single event, and it won't be rebuilt overnight or by one single project.

[bailey]

Of course it's possible nothing will get built at all, and if that happens, I'm going to blame the mentality so prevalent on this board that says, "unless we can build all of what we need - let's never build any of what we need!"

No, the mentality so prevalent on this board is "let's do something" with not the first idea of what that "something" should be.

I say, 3.4 miles is better than 0.0 miles, and if that's all we get for a while, oh well! Detroit wasn't destroyed overnight nor by one single event, and it won't be rebuilt overnight or by one single project

Again, I think you're missing what I'm saying. building 3.4 miles of it is fine...if it is part of a 30-40 or 70 mile [[just throwing out a numbers) comprehensive plan of LRT construction. However that isn't what the plan is. The plan is 12 miles in 25 yrs and lots of buses dressed up to look like trains. Which will mean that what gets built will likely be 3.4 miles of stand alone track completely irrelevant, and divorced from, the larger [[decrepit) bus network, and used primarily on game days by suburbanites as a parking shuttle....ala the People Mover. It doesn't go between the suburbs and downtown, it doesn't go to the airport, it doesn't move from one "downtown" to another [[aa to detroit...Pontiac or RO to downtown). It goes up and down a very small stretch of Woodward.

detroit rises.

[Russix]

Of course it's possible nothing will get built at all, and if that happens, I'm going to blame the mentality so prevalent on this board that says, "unless we can build all of what we need - let's never build any of what we need!"

I say, 3.4 miles is better than 0.0 miles, and if that's all we get for a while, oh well! Detroit wasn't destroyed overnight nor by one single event, and it won't be rebuilt overnight or by one single project.

But these 3.4 miles are rather useless in terms of improving transit for everyone except for those who have to physically see the path of where the rails go in order to feel comfortable in using transit. 3.4 miles of crap is still 3.4 miles of crap. A shitty design from the get go is bound to seriously hamper any future expansions efforts. We also have to pay to operate this crap, so if it can't be done properly and prove that it provides a public benefit, it shouldn't be constructed period and certainly not publicly funded.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...0362027&ref=mf

[tallboy66]

I have seen proposals for light rail and other transportation schemes going back decades. I recall one such scheme being published in a Detroit magazine back when Detroit had such things.

I remember when they opened the Festival Marketplace in Greektown in the '80s. Know what? Everywhere I turned, there was a police officer. Whoever runs Detroit has known for a long time what needs to be done, but, for whatever reason, doesn't do it. What happened with the People Mover? That was supposed to help.

I had to leave Detroit in 2003. I couldn't handle the automatic gunfire in the middle of the night anymore.

I left about that time too, though automatic gunfire may be an exaggeration, probably more like semi-automatic

[DetroitDad]

Detroit couldn't handle another botched super savior project. Success is achieved in urban renewal by taking and testing many small fixes and additions, and avoiding big flashy or innovative new ones.

As I understand it, many grants and tax dollars cannot be used for new methods of transit for a city or region, period. What this means is that only freeways and local service buses can get proper funding and support in Metro Detroit. And because we do not have the funds to do this entirely with local private money, we have no choice. We can't build a bigger light rail system until this private line is built.

[maxx]

dtowncitylover: Would one rather play $1.50-2 for a trip downtown for the day or pay $15 for a parking space for the day.

maxx: Is it possible to spend the entire day shopping in Detroit?

[maxx]

I think the absence of places to shop is hurting more than the lack of a train system.

Detroit missed the boat with IKEA big time. I know all of you big box haters are going to come out of the woodwork now but it's true.

A store like IKEA is a destination. People come from all over to shop there and maybe just maybe some smaller businesses and resturants would have followed.

This appears to deal more with Detroit's lack of growth. And I supposed this attitude hasn't changed and won't change if the street cars are put in.

If you have a retail district that is good enough people will come. People drive from here to shop on Michigan Avenue in Chicago even though almost all of the stores in Chicago have stores here.

So then, something besides those stores must be luring them to Chicago.

[ghettopalmetto]

In order to move beyond the 3.4 mile M1 Rail segment, and plan and construct a comprehensive regional transit system, there are a few things that need to happen:

1. The Legislature needs to approve a regional transit authority that develops a long-term transit plan. This includes working out the financials for both capital and operations spending, as well as modes, routing, operations, and cost projections. SEMCOG isn't a transit agency--they are the federally designated Metropolitan Planning Organization, and have demonstrated a heavy roads-oriented bias over time.

2. The regional transit authority needs to develop a long-term capital plan to show how they intend to reform and construct the transit network over time. If they're smart, they will be able so show how service is improved--and benefits--people all over the region, and not just the transit-dependent in the City of Detroit. For example, the Washington Metro won approval from voters because they planned to construct segments in each of the three jurisdictions over time, vis-a-vis concentrated on one area first. Simply stated: create a plan that has political wherewithal and wins popular support.

3. A dedicated source of operations funding needs to be determined and put to the voters.

4. Plans need to be developed so that capital construction can qualify for federal funding.

5. DO IT.

[dtowncitylover]

dtowncitylover: Would one rather play $1.50-2 for a trip downtown for the day or pay $15 for a parking space for the day.

maxx: Is it possible to spend the entire day shopping in Detroit?

When/if Detroit reaches to the downtown environment of Chicago, SanFran, or NYC, yes you can. It's just more about shopping. It's about attending the festivals, one's job, the games, the city.

[professorscott]

Ghettopalmetto has hit the nail precisely on the head. I can't imagine a better way of putting it. Now if we can get our leadership class to show some actual leadership, perhaps we can get some things done! Of course, it will help if some of us will talk to our city councilmen, county commissioners and so forth, and let them know that we are tired of being a last-place region.

[bailey]

Ghettopalmetto has hit the nail precisely on the head. I can't imagine a better way of putting it. Now if we can get our leadership class to show some actual leadership, perhaps we can get some things done! Of course, it will help if some of us will talk to our city councilmen, county commissioners and so forth, and let them know that we are tired of being a last-place region.

Writing letters to the likes of Momma K isn't going to get anything done. Writing large checks to fictitious charities might.

[esp1986]

Ghettopalmetto has hit the nail precisely on the head. I can't imagine a better way of putting it. Now if we can get our leadership class to show some actual leadership, perhaps we can get some things done! Of course, it will help if some of us will talk to our city councilmen, county commissioners and so forth, and let them know that we are tired of being a last-place region.

If history has taught us anything, it's that most of those people are only in business for themselves. Even those in Lansing are taking their marching orders from the auto companies, who I've heard are against mass transit, once again.

[Caseyc]

Detroit couldn't handle another botched super savior project. Success is achieved in urban renewal by taking and testing many small fixes and additions, and avoiding big flashy or innovative new ones.

As I understand it, many grants and tax dollars cannot be used for new methods of transit for a city or region, period. What this means is that only freeways and local service buses can get proper funding and support in Metro Detroit. And because we do not have the funds to do this entirely with local private money, we have no choice. We can't build a bigger light rail system until this private line is built.

Huh??? Talk about setting the bar low.

I would not agree with the maxim that "success" in urban renewal can only be achieved by "taking and testing many small fixes and additions, and avoiding big flashy or innovative new ones." While it doesn't have to be a billion dollar project, it also doesn't have to be so insignificant as to be doomed to failure. Moreover, "innovative" thinking should not be feared, particularly in a region where the traditional thinking has doomed it to culture of failure. I'm not saying this project is necessarily doomed, as my understanding is that they have secured agreement from the Feds to qualify the private contributions as a local contribution, thereby qualifying it for consideration for matching funds.

That said, I don't know where you are coming from in saying that grants and tax dollars can't be used for transit. While the M1 has a lot of MAJOR question marks because of the public-private and multi-governmental authority all sticking their fingers in the same pie, there are major Federal grants coming out next month and in the fall, specifically the Urban Circulator and TIGER II programs. Urban Circulator grants will be announced June 20, in amounts of up to $25 million per city. Did they submit an application for the M1? I would assume so. the TIGER II program will be even larger than the first round announced in February [[Tucson received something like $60 million for their streetcar system). I would assume the M1 will be applying for TIGER II funds as well.

[bailey]

Huh??? Talk about setting the bar low.

I would not agree with the maxim that "success" in urban renewal can only be achieved by "taking and testing many small fixes and additions, and avoiding big flashy or innovative new ones." While it doesn't have to be a billion dollar project, it also doesn't have to be so insignificant as to be doomed to failure. Moreover, "innovative" thinking should not be feared, particularly in a region where the traditional thinking has doomed it to culture of failure. I'm not saying this project is necessarily doomed, as my understanding is that they have secured agreement from the Feds to qualify the private contributions as a local contribution, thereby qualifying it for consideration for matching funds.

That said, I don't know where you are coming from in saying that grants and tax dollars can't be used for transit. While the M1 has a lot of MAJOR question marks because of the public-private and multi-governmental authority all sticking their fingers in the same pie, there are major Federal grants coming out next month and in the fall, specifically the Urban Circulator and TIGER II programs. Urban Circulator grants will be announced June 20, in amounts of up to $25 million per city. Did they submit an application for the M1? I would assume so. the TIGER II program will be even larger than the first round announced in February [[Tucson received something like $60 million for their streetcar system). I would assume the M1 will be applying for TIGER II funds as well.

Didn't M1 get 25 mill the first time around? could they get another grant?

[Caseyc]

That's right....they did, so they are out of the running for Urban Circulator. Not sure re TIGER 2.