The government will protect you!

[BShea]

"... government provided a European-style standard of living for most Americans ..."

If by that you meant an Isherwood-style Berlin nightlife from the Wiemar era, with the cabarets performing Brecht/Weill classics, I'll take it.

If by that you meant modern European nanny-statism/profligate spending that has sparked riots and killings in Greece [[with Portugal, Greece, Italy and Ireland not far behind), I'll leave it.

[Detroitnerd]

"... government provided a European-style standard of living for most Americans ..."

If by that you meant an Isherwood-style Berlin nightlife from the Wiemar era, with the cabarets performing Brecht/Weill classics, I'll take it.

If by that you meant modern European nanny-statism/profligate spending that has sparked riots and killings in Greece [[with Portugal, Greece, Italy and Ireland not far behind), I'll leave it.

Haha. Interesting that, in both situations, it is the international system that is driving both of those situations. [[League of Nations imposing cruel demands, international capital imposing austerity measures.)

The Greek situation is an interesting one. The IMF and World Bank aren't just imposing austerity demands on the third world anymore. Now European nations get to enjoy the fun of driving down living standards while appeasing the bankers.

We probably shouldn't be calling the situation in Greece a bailout of socialism. It's more a TARP for European bankers and currency speculators. European governments are funneling money into escrow-like accounts so Greece can pay the foreign bondholders who smelled blood in the water and will make a bundle, as will other swappers. The private firms will profit, the bad banking practices will be subsidized, and the real losers are financial transparency and the Greek people.

I do wish we held reckless, corrupt, money-grubbing banks to the same high standards we apparently hold socialists to. If only ...

[BShea]

I think the general consensus is that the Greek crisis is not the fault of greedy Wall Street-like fat cats and speculators, but from profligate government social spending, almost zero financial controls, investment-repellent bureaucracy, huge walls as a barrier to entry from entrepreneurs and a public that wants its entitlements -- like the retirement age of 54.

54?!?! That's absurd.

They're not rioting because they're angry at the measures their own government began to implement two years ago -- and almost no one here noticed.

I think to suggest the austerity measures are to protect financiers is a bit misleading. Greece did this to itself. Even the other nanny states say so.

[Detroitnerd]

I think the general consensus is that the Greek crisis is not the fault of greedy Wall Street-like fat cats and speculators, but from profligate government social spending, almost zero financial controls, investment-repellent bureaucracy, huge walls as a barrier to entry from entrepreneurs and a public that wants its entitlements -- like the retirement age of 54.

54?!?! That's absurd.

They're not rioting because they're angry at the measures their own government began to implement two years ago -- and almost no one here noticed.

I think to suggest the austerity measures are to protect financiers is a bit misleading. Greece did this to itself. Even the other nanny states say so.

Geez, BShea, I wouldn't mind retiring at 54. Sounds pretty sweet!

So, all the problems of Greece are the result of the current president -- who took office five years ago -- and none of this is the result of the former conservative leader Stephanopoulos? None of the blame should go to the sharp bankers who gladly saddled the country with debt and are now dictating terms of the "recovery" [[a laughable term to those familiar with neoliberal austerity measures)?

Of course, it was politically inconvenient to criticize Iceland or the Balkan states, or even poor Lithuania and Latvia [[freed from the USSR only to have to shrink their GDP to appease bankers).

Are you aware that Greece cannot even denominate the debts in their own currency? That they're locked in with the European central bankers, who are demanding that the tax burden be shifted to labor and industry? How democratic is that? And, yeah, what about the hard-working people of Greece who've played by the rules and expect their rightful pensions? They are demonstrating because they known that they have to raise a stink to get results. That bankers are going to try to dictate that labor will have higher taxes, fewer pensions and fewer rights; I think it makes sense for the people of Greece to oppose this, although I hate the bloodshed.

European, especially German, bankers, of course, are relatively happy to have Greece in their crosshairs. Only the great project of turning states into vassals of capital is hitting a speed bump. Or at least that's the way I see it.

[BShea]

Did I miss the part where the capitalist ogres forced Greece to join the EU and onto the euro?

I would guess that the rest of Europe would love to boot Greece and see it back on the drachma.

Unbridled social spending > revenue + shit financial controls = Greece.

Greece's teenager-at-the-mall-with-Dad's-Visa-card have been going on basically since it ousted the military rulers.

I would love to be able to tell my credit card companies that I'm not paying because they made me run up all that debt by offering my free credit and decent rates for awhile. Like the Greeks, I'm simply innocent and my uncontrolled spending on myself isn't my fault. And they should extend me more credit at even better terms so I can pay off the old debt they made me take when I bought myself stuff at the mall.

These are welfare states at each other's throats. I admire your conviction that this is greedy capitalism's fault, even if it's wrong. You stay on message far better than most. I would guess you're a huge fan of what the Swede's call their "erection to resurrection" state economy? They used to be the model of workable socialism until they decouple benefits from job requirements.

Will it also be the greedy "other's" fault when the PIIGs go belly up and start begging for handouts?

[Detroitnerd]

Did I miss the part where the capitalist ogres forced Greece to join the EU and onto the euro?

I would guess that the rest of Europe would love to boot Greece and see it back on the drachma.

Unbridled social spending > revenue + shit financial controls = Greece.

Greece's teenager-at-the-mall-with-Dad's-Visa-card have been going on basically since it ousted the military rulers.

I would love to be able to tell my credit card companies that I'm not paying because they made me run up all that debt by offering my free credit and decent rates for awhile. Like the Greeks, I'm simply innocent and my uncontrolled spending on myself isn't my fault. And they should extend me more credit at even better terms so I can pay off the old debt they made me take when I bought myself stuff at the mall.

These are welfare states at each other's throats. I admire your conviction that this is greedy capitalism's fault, even if it's wrong. You stay on message far better than most. I would guess you're a huge fan of what the Swede's call their "erection to resurrection" state economy? They used to be the model of workable socialism until they decouple benefits from job requirements.

Will it also be the greedy "other's" fault when the PIIGs go belly up and start begging for handouts?

Ah, BShea. If I totally disagree with you, which I do, at least I enjoy the feisty metaphors.