Isn't that what TEACHERS are for?

[maxx]

Then they shouldn't be having kids.

True, but they are. Maybe if the legislature was less obsessed with placating the anti-choice fundmentalists, they would stop cutting the funding of Planned Parenthood so that birth control pills would be affordable to the underclass.

[maxx]

Speaking of using 20th century teaching methods in the 21st century, I saw a news story about someone who had devised a handheld game player that taught or reinforced spelling and math for elementary school kids. I don't know what else it may have done. The kids were certainly engaged.

[maxx]

And here it is: Teacher Mate. Chicago school kids are using it. Why not Detroit kids?

http://www.wbez.org/Content.aspx?audioID=28782

[DetroitTeacher]

Maxx: The issue with these types of technology, in a very migrant population, is that many of them will not be returned to the school or they will be lost/stolen. I have a problem getting kids to return books, I can only imagine what it might be like trying to get technology back. If the kids/parents were given an opportunity to purhase these things, that might work but it could never be required [[I can't even require that my students have access to the Internet and use of a computer...even at the library... because of economic issues).

[maxx]

Many of the problem kids that I see in DPS don't respect their parents, the police, the teachers, or other kids. I don't see them changing so their parent can get a check...

I think this is the crux of the problem. What do you think is the reason for this? I think it's poor parenting that depends on the belt more than anything else and starting at a very early age.

[maxx]

Maxx: The issue with these types of technology, in a very migrant population, is that many of them will not be returned to the school or they will be lost/stolen. I have a problem getting kids to return books, I can only imagine what it might be like trying to get technology back. If the kids/parents were given an opportunity to purhase these things, that might work but it could never be required [[I can't even require that my students have access to the Internet and use of a computer...even at the library... because of economic issues).

I'm not suggesting that the students be able to take them home. And they would have to be counted at the end of the class. But if they are using these in the southside of Chicago, they should be able to use them in Detroit. If you're afraid to lose a $100 computer, why buy the desktops? Haven't school computer labs been vandalized?

[DetroitTeacher]

If the kids were to only use them in school, it might work. I just don't see Detroit investing in these [[it would be nice if DPS would).

[Hermod]

I don't pass them...I don't know why other teachers do.

So they won't have to deal with the same kid next year! Shuffle the problem on down the line till the bozo graduates to the criminal justice system.

[firstandten]

If the kids were to only use them in school, it might work. I just don't see Detroit investing in these [[it would be nice if DPS would).

There might be title 1 funds or other government/ private funding that could allow purchase of high tech materials

[Hermod]

I wonder where he finds some of his facts though. Especially "Students who have chosen education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major." Frankly, I doubt that.

I saw that fact quite some time ago, long before Williams began to quote it. I can't give you a reference right now, but that goes back into the 1970s.

The little girl who has her heart set on being a teacher from the age of ten [[no doubt motivated by some good teachers at the elementary level) will more than likely go into the Ed School program with pretty decent SAT scores.

The folks without the academic clout to handle it in math [[math SAT score) or advanced lit courses [[verbal SAT score) often end up in Ed School where you can get by with touchy-feely courses and still get a job at the end. The only other alternative the low mental horsepower folks have is a "soft" business major like Marketing.

For background, my Bachelor's degree is Civil Engineering and my Master's degree is Education [[don't ask, it is a long story). Anecdotally, I never met such dull people as the serving teachers with whom I had to suffer through those bullhockey Ed courses.

[English]

I saw that fact quite some time ago, long before Williams began to quote it. I can't give you a reference right now, but that goes back into the 1970s.

The little girl who has her heart set on being a teacher from the age of ten [[no doubt motivated by some good teachers at the elementary level) will more than likely go into the Ed School program with pretty decent SAT scores.

The folks without the academic clout to handle it in math [[math SAT score) or advanced lit courses [[verbal SAT score) often end up in Ed School where you can get by with touchy-feely courses and still get a job at the end. The only other alternative the low mental horsepower folks have is a "soft" business major like Marketing.

For background, my Bachelor's degree is Civil Engineering and my Master's degree is Education [[don't ask, it is a long story). Anecdotally, I never met such dull people as the serving teachers with whom I had to suffer through those bullhockey Ed courses.

Speaking from personal experience, the smartest people don't necessarily make the best teachers.

[firstandten]

Speaking from personal experience, the smartest people don't necessarily make the best teachers.

Exactly, whats more important is a love for the profession, and a love for the kids. There is a difference between that and someone getting into the profession because it was easy and a paycheck, those are the people I have a problem with.

[DetroitTeacher]

Anyone who thinks teaching is easy, is nuts. I would welcome those people to come to my classroom and try and do what I do and not go home and start drinking.

[firstandten]

Anyone who thinks teaching is easy, is nuts. I would welcome those people to come to my classroom and try and do what I do and not go home and start drinking.

Teaching is not easy, but for someone in college trying to decide what do to . The college of education looks a lot better than the school of engineering. The realization than actual teaching is not easy probably causes teacher burnout.

[DetroitTeacher]

Teaching is not easy, but for someone in college trying to decide what do to . The college of education looks a lot better than the school of engineering. The realization than actual teaching is not easy probably causes teacher burnout.

It only causes burnout for the people who got into teaching because they thought it would be a cake walk. For the people who actually love it and love the kids [[are passionate about teaching) it's harder to get burnt out. Sure, we get frustrated at times, just like at any other job but I can't say that, after 14 years, I am even close to being burnt out. I truly do love what I do. But, then again, I was one of those people with the high test scores...I got into teaching because of the passion I had, not because I have summers off or that it seemed an easy way to make a living.

[EMG]

OK, time for a little humor.

From the sounds of this message from an Australian school, it would appear that most of these education problems are not unique to Detroit after all. There may just be a lesson to be taken away from.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwghabw4N80

[English]

Teaching is not easy, but for someone in college trying to decide what do to . The college of education looks a lot better than the school of engineering. The realization than actual teaching is not easy probably causes teacher burnout.

But it causes burnout for the average Teach for America grad, who has a degree from an Ivy or elite institution and is definitely toward the right side of the bell curve. Some even majored in engineering or science or accounting, but they can't find entry-level jobs in corporate America and figure they'll try this for an alternative. After all, how difficult can teaching be?

The TfAers are less likely to stick around in classrooms than traditionally prepared teachers. They go on to grad school or law school, and are reincarnated as folks like Michelle Rhee. After a few years with the champion TfAer at the helm of the D.C. schools, would you send your children there? I am sure that most parents would follow the lead of the president, or move to MD or VA.

So the fact that teachers are stupid doesn't account for all of the problem in education. If it did, the TfA folks would be turning out urban Einsteins... not the case.

[Hermod]

The TfAers are less likely to stick around in classrooms than traditionally prepared teachers. They go on to grad school or law school, and are reincarnated as folks like Michelle Rhee. After a few years with the champion TfAer at the helm of the D.C. schools, would you send your children there? I am sure that most parents would follow the lead of the president, or move to MD or VA.

I lived in the Virginia burbs of DC for a number of years. As was noted earlier, DC has a very high rate of per pupil spending and highly paid teachers. What the school system there needs is not an educator, it needs a very competent manager. The school buildings are literally falling apart because of slip-shod maintenance caused by a totally disfunctional, dishonest, and featherbedding buildings and grounds crew full of seagulls [[They sit around all day doing nothing, they only eat, sleep, defecate, and fornicate, and you can't shoot them because they are protected by the government.).

A retired A-A US Army Lt Gen who I know and respect took over the DC school system for a brief period. He was driven out by the school unions [[not the teacher's union) for using profane four-letter words like "work".

[English]

I lived in the Virginia burbs of DC for a number of years. As was noted earlier, DC has a very high rate of per pupil spending and highly paid teachers. What the school system there needs is not an educator, it needs a very competent manager. The school buildings are literally falling apart because of slip-shod maintenance caused by a totally disfunctional, dishonest, and featherbedding buildings and grounds crew full of seagulls [[They sit around all day doing nothing, they only eat, sleep, defecate, and fornicate, and you can't shoot them because they are protected by the government.).

A retired A-A US Army Lt Gen who I know and respect took over the DC school system for a brief period. He was driven out by the school unions [[not the teacher's union) for using profane four-letter words like "work".

I totally agree with you, actually, on all points above. Our nation's universities work well because the duties of teaching and administration/fiscal management are separated.

With all the unemployed folks and jobs not returning in many sectors, the time for deadweight in education in particular AND government jobs in general is OVER. The Millennial Generation of 20 somethings is one of the best educated in history. 35,000 of them from the nation's best colleges applied for Teach for America last year for a few thousand slots. People taking civil service tests and applying for federal jobs is at a record high. In the past these ambitious people would have chosen corporate America, manufacturing entrepreneurship, or law, but offshoring and our trade policies have closed those doors for the brightest and best under 30. I think you will see a huge change in the ways that schools operate within the next 10-20 years.

BTW, this takes NOTHING away from the many hardworking teachers who are experienced already in classrooms. Actually, supply and demand will give them more opportunities for consulting, university teaching, etc. All these eager beavers from Ivy League schools need to be trained to work in specific districts and schools, and I am of the opinion that master teachers [[eg, those whose students perform at or above the building/district/state average; those with National Board Certification) are uniquely suited to do this.

[Det_ard]

School districts need to adopt the approach GE used with great success under Jack Welch. Each year all employees are ranked and the ones at the bottom are fired. GE used a figure of 5% but given the absence of this type of system in the education world the percentage may need to be larger for several years until the dead wood is thoroughly pruned.

Top performers are also determined and rewarded appropriately. There's no valid reason why underperforming teachers and administrators should keep their jobs, particularly now given the deep bench of replacements ready to come in and take their place. The task of educating the next generation is too important to be left to some who aren't up to the task.

[Hermod]

School districts need to adopt the approach GE used with great success under Jack Welch. Each year all employees are ranked and the ones at the bottom are fired. GE used a figure of 5% but given the absence of this type of system in the education world the percentage may need to be larger for several years until the dead wood is thoroughly pruned.

Top performers are also determined and rewarded appropriately. There's no valid reason why underperforming teachers and administrators should keep their jobs, particularly now given the deep bench of replacements ready to come in and take their place. The task of educating the next generation is too important to be left to some who aren't up to the task.

While I agree with you that the 5% worst teachers should be replaced every year, I am not comfortable with the ability of the principals and other supervisors to measure teacher performance with accuracy, identify underperformers with integrity, and train new teachers with competence.

Principals grading teachers is like using a micrometer to measure a marshmellow.

[Det_ard]

While I agree with you that the 5% worst teachers should be replaced every year, I am not comfortable with the ability of the principals and other supervisors to measure teacher performance with accuracy, identify underperformers with integrity, and train new teachers with competence.

Principals grading teachers is like using a micrometer to measure a marshmellow.

Perhaps the challenge then for those charged with trying to improve our schools is to come up with an evaluation system for personnel that works. Obviously we can't just throw our hands up and say "it can't be measured well enough" and never worry about teacher and administrator performance again.

It's well past time for the education establishment to get off their duff and devise a robust system for determining how well individual educators are doing their jobs. It will be a culture change but it's overdue.

Performance measures exist in every segment of our economy except a few that remain largely isolated from competitive pressures, namely education and government. That relative lack of competitve pressure has allowed them to stagnate and resist the development of innovative new ways to operate.

Store managers, for example, are evaluated against each other despite the existence of many unique factors between stores like population, income, competition, location, etc. Doctors and hospitals for years resisted the notion that their performance could be measured since every patient is different, but time has shown it to be possible, and very beneficial. In fact, making decisions based on performance is part of Obama's health care reform effort.

[Hermod]

Perhaps the challenge then for those charged with trying to improve our schools is to come up with an evaluation system for personnel that works. Obviously we can't just throw our hands up and say "it can't be measured well enough" and never worry about teacher and administrator performance again.

It's well past time for the education establishment to get off their duff and devise a robust system for determining how well individual educators are doing their jobs. It will be a culture change but it's overdue.

Performance measures exist in every segment of our economy except a few that remain largely isolated from competitive pressures, namely education and government. That relative lack of competitve pressure has allowed them to stagnate and resist the development of innovative new ways to operate.

Store managers, for example, are evaluated against each other despite the existence of many unique factors between stores like population, income, competition, location, etc. Doctors and hospitals for years resisted the notion that their performance could be measured since every patient is different, but time has shown it to be possible, and very beneficial. In fact, making decisions based on performance is part of Obama's health care reform effort.

In the Dilbert cartoon, there is one of the pointy-haired boss saying, "I never met a metric couldn't beat."

A Russian economist was trying to explain the difficulty of central state planning by using nail factories as an example: "If we grade them on weight of nails produced, we will have nothing but railroad spikes. If we grade them on number of nails produced, we will have nothing but carpet tacks. If we grade them on value of nails produced, we will see our first solid gold nails."

If you can't tie a metric to money, people will sub-optimize to meet the metric.

Student test scores and their improvement during the year is the most solid metric to rate teachers, but how many teachers want to be victim to the students they get??

I worked for the Federal Government for a long number of years. One time, my boss said I had to increase the NUMBER of reviews my people were doing. For a week, we set aside the hard, important stuff and cranked out a large number of easy, inconsequential actions. He was happy, I was not. I still had as a matter of pride and my own self-esteem to solve the hard problems [[which I did at home, at night)..

[Detroitriseup]

First of all, I want to address a comment about how teachers should be ashamed for thinking of walking out.

Your right they shouldn't "walk out" they should strike. They should remove their bulling incompetent union president. They should take a stand against Robber Bob and call for his resignation. He or who appointed him should be in prison.

The reason I say this is because he is demolishing not "reforming" the school system. Detroit teachers have one of the most dysfunctional, emotionally challenged and challenging student milieus in the country. They are one of the least paid, they face violence, gang activity and now they have to deal with Mr. Bob.

They have fired all of the para-pros and social workers who helped teachers deal with their dysfunctional students.

Money has been taken out of the system for years being illegally embezzled or misappropriated by crooked administrators, then we have the "wonderful" charter schools. They are for profit schools set up by corporations which invest money initially to pump out good test scores. They fill up the schools and than gorge themselves on the government subsidies, slowly their scores slide, and eventually they can't even keep up with the dismal scores of their public counterparts. They are here to provide an ideological reason for junking the whole public school system... privatize everything!

Its a logic i don't understand, because the city and state government don't want public education, they make such a mess of it, that everyone says "well things are too far gone to fix." No, make them fix it.

As for the teachers, they should fight... some one should. Everyone thinks that "we" Detroiters need to sacrifice... F that... why do you think Detroit is such a mess? Why is the whole country a mess? Why do you think roads arn't repaired? Why do bridges fall apart and kill people? Why is no one employed? Why can the richest country have a power outage that shuts down 4 or 5 states? Come on! Wake the F up! Why do you think their is no money for anything? Bosses used to make 20 times what their workers made. Its now over 400 times what a worker makes. Sacrifice is always and only for the poor. Naw, anyone who demands more sacrifice should be in jail, I ain't joking, whether its on this board or an official on TV. No more concessions. All the money in society is being hoarded, and its made everyone broke, and everything broke down.

Detroit ain't coming back, not until its citizens start hollaring. This is a dumping ground for the suburbs problems. Your poor and develop a drug problem? Where you think your gonna end up? Detroit. Where do suburban kids get drugs and f around? Detroit. Where do corporations go for cheap labor only to cast them aside when the tax breaks run out? You get the picture.

When working people fight, they make high wages, they have hope for the future and crime goes down. We can either fight again, or die squabbling about how auto workers, who barely live beyond a check or two from retirement, are overpaid, or how teachers should be ashamed of themselves for not wanting to donate 10,000 dollars a year from their salaries and become baby sitters for classes without class size limits.

All the while, rich are getting richer... yah and us poor folk keep getting poorer.

The way you fix a depression is by laying people off... riiiiiiight. Cause broke people can buy things...

Your gonna fix a corrupt mess of a city by running it like a bussiness? Riiiiiiight. Like it wasn't ran like one already right?

We are gonna educate kids by making teachers deal with 40 or 50 screaming kids instead of the 30 something the already can't manage... riiiiiight.

Wake up, this country is screwed, we are headed for another great depression. Detroit's already there, just wait the rest will follow.

Working people need to fight against this war on our standard of living, we need to stop waiting for saviors... we need to do it ourselves... no one will do it for us!

[Detroitriseup]

P.S. If you don't give a mason bricks, how is her going to do his job? If he doesn't have morter do you say he is a bad mason for not putting the building up? How are you gonna to determine who is a bad teacher or not when you don't have the bare minimum tools required to teach a Detroit student? A kids gonna care about algebra, when his uncle is in jail, or his mom keeps chasing men because she never had a father figure, or the power got turned off or.... riiiiiight.

Blame the victim... always! Its much easier for some of you to keep wagging those jaws then for you to get off your ass and do something to improve things. Ain't no quick fix solutions.