State of Emergency/White Nationalist Protest in Virginia

[aj3647]

Thank you for that.

We are both military or X military and already know the answer to the next question,but for the sake of others.

Do you believe that it is possible to wage a war or detrimental actions against another country,without firing a shot?

Would you view the participants of that war on American soil as traitors?

Aside from the fact that you do not need to actually pick up a weapon to become a traitor.

Yes, if you are providing material support to any illegal secession attempt or armed insurrection, you would be a traitor even if you did not pick up a gun yourself.

[aj3647]

Funny thing is, I am not the one calling for socialism in this country so who is brainwashed?

Who's calling for socialism? Me? Should be simple enough then to quote the post of mine where I do such a thing.

[Richard]

Sure. It's done all the time in many ways. 'Rump is engaged in such actions now and that's why many want him Impeached.

See that is the problem,so much time and energy going after President Trump because it is him,instead of dealing with the real issues.

You give him to much credit,this is not a dictatorship and he was not put there to be a touchy feeley person.

He really has little actual power and pretty much everything he does needs to be approved by something or another.

I guess that is the choice,stand there and scream phuck you Trump or figure out how to use his position to improve the daily lives of ones fellow American.

Screaming phuck you Trump resolves nothing other then some personal gratification.

Improving the daily lives of our fellow Americans regardless of their race,color or creed equally and with respect to all points of view makes a strong country for everybody.

Other from a potential investment or relocation aspect the only other reason I would give a crap about Detroit is because I understand its citizens are a part of this country and the stronger Detroit is the stronger the country is as a whole.

That and the sedimentary part about how I feel this country owes a debt and gratitude to the past residents that stood up and did what it took when this nation needed it.

[canuck]

Richard, if there were a Nobel Prize for regular Joes like you and me, you would definitely be up for one in the Fuzzy Thinking category. Your posts are so consistently fuzzy in logical terms that they deserve special mention.

You claim that Germany should have been leveled and yet you gently poke the other posters with the view that Nazis and their propaganda in this day and age are to be not only tolerated but protected.

All the stuff that made it possible 80 years ago to provoke the Western world's deadliest episode is present in this idea of tolerance. Your constitutionalist self adheres to very high principles, but if your child or grandchild ends up being targeted by these degenerates, your vendetta-vigilante side may be excited into something less pleasant. That is, unless you are limping à la Chump and decide like him, that his grandchildren [[some who would be Jewish, by the way) are not worth protecting.

The freedom of expression angle is a crock of shite when you invoke the total destruction of Germany. That country was protected by the United States and others with the express constitutional requirement that made the display of symbols, and manifestation or honoring of the Nazi past a crime. If that had not been imposed by the US and other Western constitutional experts, the world would be a lot worse off.

[Richard]

Yes, if you are providing material support to any illegal secession attempt or armed insurrection, you would be a traitor even if you did not pick up a gun yourself.

This is my view.

I do not support the Nazi party and all that they stand for.
I do support the constitution that they hide behind.

I believe those that fought in the civil war for the most part did so doing what they believed in outside of the slavery part which was not the only reason for the civil war.

I feel that there can be a civil compromise on the relocation of the statues taking into account both sides of the issue and the personal feelings involved.

Whether I agree with the statues or not it is not my right to dictate to my fellow Americans what they should believe in based on my personal beliefs.

I believe that the young lady that was killed,was there doing what she believed in.

I believe that there is a concentrated force in this country,call it the socialist party,or whatever that is funded and supported both in this country and outside whose sole mission is to undermine the sovereignty of this nation and to undermine the constitution to further their cause.

I believe that and based on the past history of the Nazi party rallys which involved protesters against the Nazis,which were local residents like this young lady was.

She had no reason to believe that she was going to a violent protest, based on that past history.

I believe that an outside force was brought in to create the violence that caused the deaths of the young lady and the officers that were in the helicopters.

I believe that the outside force was funded from within this country.

That is what I believe,it is easy to blame the Nazis because they were there,I want to know the real reason of those deaths and if there was something more behind it.In no way should that be twisted to make me a supporter of them.

[Richard]

Richard, if there were a Nobel Prize for regular Joes like you and me, you would definitely be up for one in the Fuzzy Thinking category. Your posts are so consistently fuzzy in logical terms that they deserve special mention.

You claim that Germany should have been leveled and yet you gently poke the other posters with the view that Nazis and their propaganda in this day and age are to be not only tolerated but protected.

All the stuff that made it possible 80 years ago to provoke the Western world's deadliest episode is present in this idea of tolerance. Your constitutionalist self adheres to very high principles, but if your child or grandchild ends up being targeted by these degenerates, your vendetta-vigilante side may be excited into something less pleasant. That is, unless you are limping à la Chump and decide like him, that his grandchildren [[some who would be Jewish, by the way) are not worth protecting.

The freedom of expression angle is a crock of shite when you invoke the total destruction of Germany. That country was protected by the United States and others with the express constitutional requirement that made the display of symbols, and manifestation or honoring of the Nazi past a crime. If that had not been imposed by the US and other Western constitutional experts, the world would be a lot worse off.

So why did Canada have to deport the Nazi to face criminal charges,why did they not charge him in Canada.

They knew who he was but yet they gave him citizenship,then when called out on it the only recourse was to pull his citizenship and deport him because Canada could do nothing under their currant laws.

Because Canada has the exact same views and protections that the United states has,for the fifth time.

Once again you are chastising the United States and their citizens on how they handle their affairs when your own country handles them in the exact same way.

But yet my views are fuzzy.

Do you know what the phrase " give us back our bicycles" means and who still uses it till this day?

[JBMcB]

Seeing as someone responded to the protest in real time by murdering people with his car, that would be imminent, unlawful action.

Only if you can prove that, immediately before it happened, someone was yelling at him, specifically, to run down or otherwise harm the counter-protesters. It may have happened, in which case that person or persons should be held accountable.

As far as Brandenburg's jurisprudence goes, it's the widely accepted standard, and nobody has mounted a case that has come close to overturning it.

This ties into causality and agency legal theory.

[Pam]

Why Did Police Stand Down In Charlottesville?

https://youtu.be/z5gcbT-lxWg

[Meddle]

[ ... ]

When you post a link, you should explain what it is and why you feel it's relevant. There needs to be some supporting text.

[Pam]

When you post a link, you should explain what it is and why you feel it's relevant. There needs to be some supporting text.

It's a discussion of the non-action of the police in Charlottesville.

[Meddle]

It's a discussion of the non-action of the police in Charlottesville.

Discussion by who? What is the source? Television station? Other news media? Tabloid? Amateur?

[Zacha341]

Non action by law enforcement played a part. We saw this in Baltimore where protestors were given 'space to destroy'.

Charlottesville Police Chief Thomas speaks to regrets re. loosing lives but stops short of detailing why [[see vid). Protestors speak out on both sides etc.:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/pol...rnd/index.html

http://nypost.com/2017/08/16/victim-...ille-beatdown/

What Went Wrong With The Police Response In Charlottesville

Officers failed a primary duty of keeping the peace, say law enforcement experts and attendees.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b090964298e5bc

[Pam]

Discussion by who? What is the source? Television station? Other news media? Tabloid? Amateur?

It's the Jimmy Dore show, a You Tube show. He is reading from an account of a reporter who was in Charlottesville. Good enough? You don't have to click on it if you don't want to.

[Meddle]

^^ So it's just made up crap. Got it.

[Meddle]

Non action by law enforcement played a part.

Like allowing anyone at all to carry weapons or wear shields, helmets and body armor.

[Richard]

Non action by law enforcement played a part. We saw this in Baltimore where protestors were given 'space to destroy'.

Charlottesville Police Chief Thomas speaks to regrets re. loosing lives but stops short of detailing why [[see vid). Protestors speak out on both sides etc.:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/pol...rnd/index.html

http://nypost.com/2017/08/16/victim-...ille-beatdown/

What Went Wrong With The Police Response In Charlottesville

Officers failed a primary duty of keeping the peace, say law enforcement experts and attendees.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b090964298e5bc

In Baltimore there was a clear stand down order from the mayor giving protesters time to vent.

In the case of Charlottesville the nazis and patroits had never attended a rally wearing helmets and shields in the past.

But they did this time.

Antifa shows up with helmets,shields,sticks,ballon filled urine,mace,tear gas etc.

Stuck in the middle was the local protesters that had no idiea what was about to happen.

The nazis are under constant surveillance by the government,if they were going there ready to create violence then the government would have had known well in advance.

In the past outside of some pushing and shoving the nazis did thier march and went home,but never dressed for heavy violence.

Why now? How did they know that it was necessary to prepare for Antifa and the police did not.

Unless we can find a stand down order given to the police,I find it hard to place blame on them,they had adequate resources in place to deal with the expected.

The desinated protected safe zone was the park and that was discussed before the rally by police and both sides,it was not until they left that safe zone and spread out into the streets when they lost that protection,the police advailable at the time had to remain in the pre planned safe zone to continue protecting the ones that stuck with the original plan until reinforcements could arrive.

If you go to a protest wearing a crash helmets carrying offensive weapons then you are going there prepared to create violence,you cannot ingage in violence and then expect the police to protect you.

If you attend a protest and see other protesters prepared for violence you have to figure that there will be violence and either put distance inbetween that or call it a day.

I still say in this case Antifa became no different then the nazis,they had no right to deprive the counter protesters of their right of free speech even if it was not legally permitted with a piece of paper.

That whole thing originally was one group that was protesting the removal of the statue,their view is their protest was hijacked by the nazi party.

[Richard]

Like allowing anyone at all to carry weapons or wear shields, helmets and body armor.

I agree and I guess we will see if that works in Boston today.

[JBMcB]

Noam Chomsky: "[Antifa] is a major gift to the right"

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no...rticle/2631786

[Pam]

^^ So it's just made up crap. Got it.

I guess if you don't like that source, you can check the stuff Zacha posted that says the same thing.

[Richard]

Here is a YouTube video of Antifa protesting Soros over getting paid.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6IovWPu2w44

several different ones on there.

I guess if one has enough money you can actually hire an army.

Then there is Hillary donating $800,000 to the cause.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o-x9aOgGJnI

[canuck]

In Baltimore there was a clear stand down order from the mayor giving protesters time to vent.

In the case of Charlottesville the nazis and patroits had never attended a rally wearing helmets and shields in the past.

But they did this time.

Antifa shows up with helmets,shields,sticks,ballon filled urine,mace,tear gas etc.

Stuck in the middle was the local protesters that had no idiea what was about to happen.

The nazis are under constant surveillance by the government,if they were going there ready to create violence then the government would have had known well in advance.

In the past outside of some pushing and shoving the nazis did thier march and went home,but never dressed for heavy violence.

Why now? How did they know that it was necessary to prepare for Antifa and the police did not.

Unless we can find a stand down order given to the police,I find it hard to place blame on them,they had adequate resources in place to deal with the expected.

The desinated protected safe zone was the park and that was discussed before the rally by police and both sides,it was not until they left that safe zone and spread out into the streets when they lost that protection,the police advailable at the time had to remain in the pre planned safe zone to continue protecting the ones that stuck with the original plan until reinforcements could arrive.

If you go to a protest wearing a crash helmets carrying offensive weapons then you are going there prepared to create violence,you cannot ingage in violence and then expect the police to protect you.

If you attend a protest and see other protesters prepared for violence you have to figure that there will be violence and either put distance inbetween that or call it a day.

I still say in this case Antifa became no different then the nazis,they had no right to deprive the counter protesters of their right of free speech even if it was not legally permitted with a piece of paper.

That whole thing originally was one group that was protesting the removal of the statue,their view is their protest was hijacked by the nazi party.

Ahhh!

Patriots.

That is the key word in there.

[JBMcB]

Here is a YouTube video of Antifa protesting Soros over getting paid.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6IovWPu2w44
several different ones on there.

Bad source - he's referencing a video from Beverly Hills Antifa which is a parody twitter account. There are several of these, some of which are kinda funny:

[Richard]

Ahhh!

Patriots.

That is the key word in there.

Yes it is,instead of a wide brush,try and understand who you are dealing with.

Patroits,as they call them selves,carry the rebel flag as their southern heritage or the way of life that was totally different then the northern life at the time.

They do not endorse racism,nazis or violence. They are not looking to take over the country.

If you are an African American or a Jew and you see a patriot coming towards you carrying a rebel flag then you have nothing to worry about and if somebody is messing with you they will step in.

Not so much with Nazis.

Everybody paints the rebel flag as racist,slave owning thugs.

The south was rural back then,6% of the entire population owned slaves,everybody from the south was not a plantation owner.

Most were just farmers trying to survive,hang out drink some shine,dance to music etc. Like they say good old boys.

They for the most part may not have a dime but they will give you the shirt off of thier back if you need it.

The same night Katrina hit New Orleans and word came down that there was flooding,there was a line 10 miles long of trucks loaded with water,canned food and air boats,and yes lots of rebel flags. Nobody asked them to go,They just formed up and went.They were organised and mobile from across the state of Florida in less then two hours,while the government was paralyzed.

State police on I10 would not let them pass but they knew people needed help that they were not getting,so they found away around.

New Orleans was 80% African American,they did not see it that way,they saw fellow Americans that needed help and did what needed to be done.

This country is full of little clicks everybody has thier form of identity or flag.

We like to attach hatred to symbols and use that for a blanket solution,it is a bit more complex then that.

You felt the need to comment about my fuzzy post and my personal opinion about Germany after WW2.

I will ask you again,do you know the meaning behind the phrase that is still used today generations later,of "Give us back our bicycles"

[Jimaz]

Antifa: A Look at the Antifascist Movement Confronting White Supremacists in the Streets

You had a number of the courageous students of all colors at the University of Virginia who were protesting against the neofascists themselves. The neofascists had their own ammunition, and this is very important to keep in mind because the police for the most part pulled back. The next day, for example, of the twenty of us that were standing, many of them clergy, we would have been crushed like cockroaches if not for the anarchists and the antifascists who approached over 300, 350 [fascists], we just had 20 and we're singing "this little light of mine." And they're crucial [with?] anarchists because they saved our lives. We would have been completely crushed, and I'll never forget that.

• Dr. Cornel West
• Who are the antifa?
• DemocracyNOW.org

Part 2—Antifa: A Look at the Anti-Fascist Movement Confronting White Supremacists in the Streets

[Richard]

Part 2—Antifa: A Look at the Anti-Fascist Movement Confronting White Supremacists in the Streets

Then post links of how Antifa is viewed around the world for a more unbiased view.

Also the mass protests against Soros across the world against his meddling.

The comment against President Trumps statement on the day of rally is typical.

He is chastised everyday all day long for every word he says or tweets,so now the rally and hours into it he is chastised for denouncing violence on both sides.

Would have a knee jerk reaction been better? At that time the only known facts were that 3 lives were lost and there was violence on both sides.

Right or wrong?

This country in the past has shown us that the public likes knee jerk reactions because it gives those worked up more incentive to carry on.

Before having all of the facts,and if the President in the heat of the moment,has said these Nazis deserve to die like we see here in the forum,everybody knows exactly what would have happened,the same thing that happens every time,cities burn,people riot,and more people get hurt.

At that time who would have been easier to put in check if the situation went out of control,a few thousand Nazis or millions of Americans in the streets.

He did what he should have,he diffused the situation and pacified and came back at a later time when it was not in the heat of the moment.

But we also know that whatever he said would never had been good enough,because he is President Trump.

Interesting country we live in.

A guy in Oregon gets stabbed because of his haircut represented a Nazi haircut,cropped sides with hair on the top,pretty much the military standard.

Posters call people with spelling mistakes and bad formatting the lowest common denominator and their opinion does not matter because of that.Justification for superiority.

Change the constitution in able to go after those who we do not agree with.

Label or call names anybody that we do not agree with or opposes us,to gain public support and justification.

Circumvent the law in order to deal with those who we do not agree with.

Remove any trace of existence of those that oppose us.

The stifling of free speech in public without recourse.

It took Hitler exactly 53 days to implement all of the above in order to gain public opinion and justify actions against the Jews,and anybody else that did not agree with what his views were.

He had help in the implementation all of this from the citizens that were more then happy to turn in anybody that mentioned in public anything against him.

Facebook and twitter have become the posting ground for that.

A Nazi at a rally,I can look at him and say,yes he is a Nazi,what is worse is the seemingly high rate of Americans that support the fascists cause without carrying the Nazi flag,there is no difference.

On a side note if one looks at the United States currency,there are photos of past slave owners,if that offends one then they can send them to me and I will properly dispose of them for you.