Whole Foods CEO, On Opening Detroit Store: 'We're Going After Elitism, Racism'

[Honky Tonk]

I was just in Canada today discussing with Canadians the phenomenon of Canadians shopping in the US. It's slightly cheaper and they say they don't have equivalents of Whole Foods or Trader Joe's in southwestern Ontario. Hordes of them shop at Meijer's, Honey Bee, and even the Trader's in Grosse Pointe. They're thrilled about the Whole Foods in Midtown.

But what would Canadians know about Canadians...you're the expert...

How many did you survey? 20, 30, 40, 2 ? Just curious. Your post is so definitive about Canadians and their shopping habits.

[softailrider]

Whole Foods, at least the one in Troy, has non-organic veggies and fruits on its shelves that don't cost nearly as much as the organic varieties that they sell. You can also get the house brand groceries and self-care products at fairly reasonable prices. I agree, their cheese prices are high as well as their meat, but if it's produce you want and need, you can get it without having to mortgage your house.

I think i'm a pretty good shopper, I would say the non-organic produce at the W.F's in Troy is 20% more expensive the Meijer or Kroger.

[Newdetroit]

All the other grocery stores which have remained opened throughout the toughest neighborhoods of Detroit never received a dime in tax credits. Racism??

[Bham1982]

But what would Canadians know about Canadians...you're the expert...

You're right, I don't know about Canadians' grocery habits.

But I do know that you need a passport to cross, which already eliminates half of Canadians. And I doubt the rest want to chance insults, interrogation and strip-searches for a head of lettuce [[all of which have happened to friends of mine when crossing to the U.S. side).

[ghettopalmetto]

Funny how, when spec development takes place in the suburbs, it's just meeting the demands of the free market. But when a business opens in Detroit proper, there's a litany of excuses why it must fail.

[wolverine]

I think the important thing to consider is this is one more option. I don't think it's meant to be a substitute. Whole Foods will address the problem of "leakage" which is where dollars of neighborhood residents are spent outside the city. Now, this doesn't mean ALL residents....but some...which meets a market niche.

Next thing to consider is pretty much all new big grocery stores in large cities get public financing these days. But Detroit's was different. I'd probably had recommended they use of TIF money if such a district exists.

[nain rouge]

We just need to differentiate here. The anti-racism rhetoric on the part of the CEO is stupid. The Whole Foods opening is great.

[Honky Tonk]

Funny how, when spec development takes place in the suburbs, it's just meeting the demands of the free market. But when a business opens in Detroit proper, there's a litany of excuses why it must fail.

Funny how when a spec development takes place in the 'burbs, it doesn't get 4.3 million in subsides to do so. The 'burb actually takes in revenue off of the development being there. As far as these comments about not being able to find a head of lettuce in the COD, it tells me the poster really doesn't know jack about the COD. Poor little greenie.

[poobert]

How many did you survey? 20, 30, 40, 2 ? Just curious. Your post is so definitive about Canadians and their shopping habits.

All of them. From the Prime Minister to Wayne Gretzky. They all fucking love it.

Jesus Christ on a raft, I didn't say it was a scientific survey, just some anecdotal information. As far as I know there are no reliable statistics of Canadians shopping for groceries in the US, but the fact is they do. I apologize if I disrupted you guys and your little game of Whole Foods-hating. Bunch of nuts on here.

[Honky Tonk]

All of them. From the Prime Minister to Wayne Gretzky. They all fucking love it.

Jesus Christ on a raft, I didn't say it was a scientific survey, just some anecdotal information. As far as I know there are no reliable statistics of Canadians shopping for groceries in the US, but the fact is they do. I apologize if I disrupted you guys and your little game of Whole Foods-hating. Bunch of nuts on here.

Certainly is.

[bailey]

Funny how, when spec development takes place in the suburbs, it's just meeting the demands of the free market. But when a business opens in Detroit proper, there's a litany of excuses why it must fail.

Um. well, I think the answer is in which one is getting 4.2 million in bribes to open and which one self finances.

[ghettopalmetto]

Um. well, I think the answer is in which one is getting 4.2 million in bribes to open and which one self finances.

Is that right? So every Meijer/Walmart in the suburbs has extended its own water and sewer lines? Somerset Collection paved the automotive sewer that is Big Beaver Road? If all the suburban development pays for itself, why aren't the streets of Oakland County paved in gold?

You guys just keep on believing what you want, though. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[iheartthed]

Funny how when a spec development takes place in the 'burbs, it doesn't get 4.3 million in subsides to do so. The 'burb actually takes in revenue off of the development being there. As far as these comments about not being able to find a head of lettuce in the COD, it tells me the poster really doesn't know jack about the COD. Poor little greenie.

Who pays for the infrastructure upgrades on converted farmland in Clinton Twp to build a new mall?

[bailey]

All of them. From the Prime Minister to Wayne Gretzky. They all fucking love it.

Jesus Christ on a raft, I didn't say it was a scientific survey, just some anecdotal information. As far as I know there are no reliable statistics of Canadians shopping for groceries in the US, but the fact is they do. I apologize if I disrupted you guys and your little game of Whole Foods-hating. Bunch of nuts on here.

Just curious as to why you're demanding your "anecdotal" information be taken any more seriously than his anecdotal information?

As an aside, I'm in the GP Kroger and Traders several times a week... I can count on one had the number of Ontario plates I've seen in the parking lot. I guess I don't see the "hordes" of which you speak. But that's just my anecdotal information.

[jcole]

I think i'm a pretty good shopper, I would say the non-organic produce at the W.F's in Troy is 20% more expensive the Meijer or Kroger.

Didn't say they weren't; said they weren't as pricey as the organic stuff and that you could afford them if you have to. Kroger and Meijer aren't available to Detroiters unless they leave the city.

[bailey]

Is that right? So every Meijer/Walmart in the suburbs has extended its own water and sewer lines? Somerset Collection paved the automotive sewer that is Big Beaver Road? If all the suburban development pays for itself, why aren't the streets of Oakland County paved in gold?

You guys just keep on believing what you want, though. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

And if Detroit were contributing 4.2 million to upgrade the roads, sewers, and utilities around and leading to the WF that benefit more than just WF, you'd have a point. However they are not. They are paying WF directly so they can keep the build out costs down so that they can rent at $6 a SqFt because WF claims it can't survive at that location without direct subsidy. I wonder how YOBS or the 80 other independently owned grocers in the city do it?

I really don't get how you can rail on and on ad nauseum about subsidies for private entities like the Illitchs.. or in the suburbs... or, from what I can tell - anything..ever , but somehow are defending this sillyness. I mean do you work for WF or something?

[Honky Tonk]

Just curious as to why you're demanding your "anecdotal" information be taken any more seriously than his anecdotal information?

As an aside, I'm in the GP Kroger and Traders several times a week... I can count on one had the number of Ontario plates I've seen in the parking lot. I guess I don't see the "hordes" of which you speak. But that's just my anecdotal information.

In all fairness to poobert, there ARE, [[or were, since 9-11), quite a few CA plates around town. Back in the day when I served time living Downriver, I'd venture to say you'd see one CA plate for every 2 MI plates, [[and that's just my totally anecdotal observation), up and down the Eureka Rd. shopping strip, on any given day. I haven't been back there on a regular basis, so I have no idea how this is playing out these days, with the tightened border security. But you are right, I shop @ the same stores you mentioned above, [[LOVE TJ's), and I don't see many CA plates in this part of town either.

[Honky Tonk]

Who pays for the infrastructure upgrades on converted farmland in Clinton Twp to build a new mall?

Damn good question, who? Better yet, why?

[ghettopalmetto]

I really don't get how you can rail on and on ad nauseum about subsidies for Illitch..suburbs... or, from what I can tell - anything..ever, but somehow are defending this sillyness. I mean do you work for WF or something?

I don't believe government should be picking winners and losers. And I've only defended Whole Foods as far as their right to open in the City of Detroit--it's not for the public bellyachers to determine whether or not they have the right to do business. As I've stated, the City of Detroit, private foundations, and State of Michigan had every right to refuse subsidies to this particular business. They did not. That's not the same as litigating local governments into submission whenever they refuse to extend water lines and pave eight-lane highways to your store, as Walmart does.

You do, however, have a consistent history of bemoaning tax subsidies in Detroit while conveniently ignoring the government largess that has paved thousands of acres of farms and orchards during a decades-long period of Zero Population Growth.

[bailey]

[QUOTE=ghettopalmetto;385500]

]I don't believe government should be picking winners and losers

Yes you do... you say as much in this very post. So long as they are in your approved zone of development, the government coffers are open. Well, unless you're already here... then fuck you, Whole Foods needs that money, not you local business person that has stuck it out here and put real skin in the game.

And I've only defended Whole Foods as far as their right to open in the City of Detroit--it's not for the public bellyachers to determine whether or not they have the right to do business

. Nice straw man. Not one person says they don't have a right to open. Most are bit confused why a business as successful and elitist as WF needs public money to fight elitism, racism and the "food desert" by opening a half sized version of it's store in one of the few areas of Detroit awash in food options and with probably the fewest minority residents. Opening at 7 mile and John R? ok, maybe they'd have a point. Opening in hipster central? C'mon.

As I've stated, the City of Detroit, private foundations, and State of Michigan had every right to refuse subsidies to this particular business. They did not. That's not the same as litigating local governments into submission whenever they refuse to extend water lines and pave eight-lane highways to your store, as Walmart does.

Again, nice straw man. No one saying they can't do it, the question is "WHY?" I mean, how does a city teetering on bankruptcy justify kicking in anything to open ONE grocery store? How does a State that claims it's not for it to intercede by picking winners and losers [[film incentive) turn around and dump a few million on ONE grocery store?

You do, however, have a consistent history of bemoaning tax subsidies in Detroit while conveniently ignoring the government largess that has paved thousands of acres of farms and orchards during a decades-long period of Zero Population Growth.

So spending 4 million in a city with net negative growth for far longer makes MORE sense? ok then...see that first part about picking winners and losers.

Further, I can not recall where I "bemoan[ed]" a tax subsidy for Detroit that made sense in favor of a road expansion in the exurbs.

[canuck]

I don't believe government should be picking winners and losers. And I've only defended Whole Foods as far as their right to open in the City of Detroit--it's not for the public bellyachers to determine whether or not they have the right to do business. As I've stated, the City of Detroit, private foundations, and State of Michigan had every right to refuse subsidies to this particular business. They did not. That's not the same as litigating local governments into submission whenever they refuse to extend water lines and pave eight-lane highways to your store, as Walmart does.

You do, however, have a consistent history of bemoaning tax subsidies in Detroit while conveniently ignoring the government largess that has paved thousands of acres of farms and orchards during a decades-long period of Zero Population Growth.

You are right Honky Tonk, everybody knows companies will take advantage of subsidies and tax breaks wherever thay can get them. They have the merit of seeming above board, however if I look at the collusion that exists in the area of roadbuilding in the post war years, it's the perfect illusion of greed disguised as need.

[iheartthed]

Damn good question, who?

Take a wild guess:

Homeowners in Washtenaw County's Sylvan Township are faced with a 4.4-mill property tax to help pay off a $13-million loan for water and sewers for two developments: a 350-unit condominium community, of which only about 50 were built, and 350 houses, none of which were built.

The millage, which passed by seven votes in the August primary election, adds $440 to the yearly property tax bill for a homeowner with a $200,000 house.


Years ago, the developers used a lawsuit to force the township to put in the water and sewer infrastructure, said Supervisor Robert Lange. The township tried to hook up to another community's sewers, but the developers wanted a dedicated system, he said.


Then the developments went bust, and the township was stuck with the bill. "There's no way we could pay for these bonds" without the millage, Lange said.

What does he think of the situation? "I don't think you can print it," Lange said.

Not only do many communities owe for bonds they took out to finance water lines, sewers or roads, they also may owe their county money if a developer didn't pay property taxes.

Many cities and townships dipped into their county's delinquent tax revolving loan fund to keep the cash flow going as developments were going bust, Oakland County Treasurer Andy Meisner explained. Their plan was to repay the loans once the county collected the taxes or the properties went through tax foreclosure and were sold at a county auction.

The problem was, in many instances, the properties didn't sell at auction, and the taxes went unpaid. The properties then reverted back to the city or township, which now has to repay the county loan fund.

Such is the case in Sylvan Township, which is faced with repaying both the infrastructure bonds and the county's revolving tax fund.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012091...infrastructure

It's the municipal equivalent of a Ponzi scheme. The developers manipulate these towns into subsidizing those developments. The towns front the costs through debt and then when that town becomes the new sprawlburb it repays the loans with the newly realized tax revenues. This isn't a bad idea for a high growth region that is adding significant population per decade since such a region would have a real need to additional housing. However, in slow-growth/no-growth regions like Detroit this just creates an artificial market that sucks population and tax revenue from other parts of the region. And, as the article articulates, this carries a bit of risk for the aspiring sprawlburbs themselves because if the growth doesn't materialize then the community is on the hook for a bill that it likely cannot afford without the population growth that it was promised.

I'm not the biggest fan of taxpayer assistance for private enterprise but personally the Whole Foods subsidy ranks pretty low on my outrage meter. Detroit does need more grocery options in the city. The presence of Whole Foods does give the neighborhood a better perception that will help it to attract residents. Detroit does need residents for its survival in a way that a sleepy township on the metropolitan fringe does not. Most importantly, a tax subsidy that does not materialize into the promised revenue does not put Detroit on the hook for producing extra revenue to cover the costs for this development. The infrastructure for the development was already developed years ago. Detroit doesn't need to take on debt for speculative infrastructure expansion projects.

[Eber Brock Ward]

ghetto palmetto placed the lid on the casket the last few posts. iheartthed just nailed it down.

good show.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't get the criticism on the size of the store either [[the "half-sized" comments). I suppose if you do your grocery shopping in warehouses, then 25,000 square feet might seem tiny. But this store is clearly not meant to be the out-scaled "regional attraction" to which so many people in Michigan are accustomed. Is there something wrong with a store that serves its neighborhood [[and purchases from local farmers and purveyors)? Tax subsidies or not, this is a step in the right direction scale-wise for Detroit.

For what it's worth, my local grocery store is 19,000 square feet and carries everything I could need on a regular basis, and then some.

[TexasT]

So are people mad that Detroit gave Whole Foods $1.5M or are they ok with that but mad that other stores don't receive the same support?

Because as to the former, every city I've ever lived in [[Houston and Chicago included) gave incentives to bring grocery stores to the city. I already linked to the one about Chicago giving a few million to a grocery store in the West Loop. Houston used incentives to bring H-E-B to the Heights area, a bohemian/hipster neighborhood in central Houston. San Antonio, the 7th largest city in the nation, just put out an RFP with a million dollars included to bring a grocer to downtown. Just is what it is; what goes on in suburbs isn't always what works in cities.

As to the latter, as far as other stores, are you sure they are not getting incentives? YOBS got financial assistance from MEDC and DEGC, the organizations that provided the incentives to WF. I keep seeing people say that YOBS was left on their own but that's not accurate.

The DEGC Green Grocer Project was one of the Shoppe's earliest supporters - providing a technical assistance grant to help store owners, Peter and Michael Solaka prepare the space for a retail grocery. The Economic Development Corporation of the City of Detroit [[EDC) and the Michigan Economic Development Corporation [[MEDC) each approved additional financial incentives to support the store. MEDC provided a match to the Green Grocer grant, and the EDC offered a loan. The combination of incentives is a great example of how The Green Grocer project can leverage help from a variety of sources to support better choices for grocery shoppers in Detroit.

http://www.degc.org/news.aspx/ye-old...grocer-support