Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[Shollin]

If Madison Square Gardens is an eye sore the city wants to tear down, why are they currently in the middle of a multi million dollar renovation?

[Bham1982]

Cleveland's is in their downtown.

Ditto baltimore.

Pittsburgh?

Cincinnati?

Yeah, I know. Don't forget Indy, Charlotte, St. Louis, Houston, Phoenix and Detroit, of course.

They tend to be in second-tier downtowns that have been struggling, and taxpayers usually foot the bill under the guise of economic development. I would say the record is spotty.

[Bham1982]

If Madison Square Gardens is an eye sore the city wants to tear down, why are they currently in the middle of a multi million dollar renovation?

Because they're owned by the idiot Dolan family, which refused to sell to neighboring developers [[Vornado), and then went ahead with a renovation, to scare the city away from invoking eminent domain.

The MSG renovation is interior only. They aren't touching the outside appearance. I don't think MSG will be around too long, given the location and local politics. It's basically sitting in the way of a Penn Station expansion.

[JVB]

Pittsburgh is far from a "second-tier downtown", it's probably one of the most beautiful in the country.

[Detroitnerd]

Pittsburgh is far from a "second-tier downtown", it's probably one of the most beautiful in the country.

It may be beautiful, but that doesn't mean it's first-tier.

Did you know there was a tier system for global cities? I didn't either. DetroitYES can be a learning experience.

There are only two Alpha ++ cities, the top category, worldwide: New York and London.

Detroit is a beta-minus.

Pittsburgh is a gamma.

[aj3647]

Because [[a) it is nothing more than a big, empty shell. There is absolutely nothing integrated into it or around it that is open on non-Tigers game days [[because of the design that made it a big arena surrounded by lots) and [[b) the parking that Ilitch/Olympia has to support Tigers games is an absolute mess of surface and dirt lots that are only open on game days.

Because it's a giant dead zone in the middle of the "entertainment district" 284 days a year.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble gentlemen, but I'm fairly certain I've attended multiple concerts at Comerica Park on "non-game days." Just sayin'. It's not quite the "dead zone" on non-game days that you two make it out to be, in fact a number of OHL and other hockey games are being played there this month.

[southen]

Um, sorry to burst your bubble gentlemen, but I'm fairly certain I've attended multiple concerts at Comerica Park on "non-game days." Just sayin'. It's not quite the "dead zone" on non-game days that you two make it out to be, in fact a number of OHL and other hockey games are being played there this month.

so a handful, and i use that generously, of concerts are there each summer so that makes the difference? come on.

[Detroitnerd]

Um, sorry to burst your bubble gentlemen

I love how the subtitles for that read, "I am overjoyed to have information that conflicts with yours, assholes."

[rb336]

I don't know how you ascertain if Cheli's Chilli Bar is there becuase of Comerica, or is it Joe Louis, or maybe the Fox.

Really? because of the JOE???? Chelios stated when he opened it that it was because of Comerica and the website highlights the location

[JVB]

Did you know there was a tier system for global cities? I didn't either. DetroitYES can be a learning experience.

There are only two Alpha ++ cities, the top category, worldwide: New York and London.

Detroit is a beta-minus.

Pittsburgh is a gamma.

I've seen those listings before, some guy came up with a ranking system for cities. The fact that Detroit is ranked higher than Pittsburgh, Portland, Columbus, Austin and a bunch of others shows how credible his rankings are.

Besides, that's not what bham was referring too.

[rb336]

I've seen those listings before, some guy came up with a ranking system for cities. The fact that Detroit is ranked higher than Pittsburgh, Portland, Columbus, Austin and a bunch of others shows how credible his rankings are.

Besides, that's not what bham was referring too.

The ranking, as I understand it, include numerous things like history, international importance, etc. In those, Detroit has it all over those other cities

[Novine]

"When the very first one you list comes from the same people who gave us the "there is no proof that smoking cigarettes is dangerous" and "global warming is fiction" bullshit, and the second is written by a fellow of THAT SAME INSTITUTION, I have no reason to find any validity to them."

The studies came from the right, left and center. Richard Florida and the St. Louis Fed aren't climate deniers. The point is that economists from all viewpoints have debunked the claimed benefits of these kinds of developments. Shills for people like Ilitch will always wave around claims of huge economic benefits that justify pouring hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars into these projects. But when evaluated by independent experts, these benefits rarely materialize and never to the degree claimed by boosters.

[Jason]

I think it would be good for the government to support these kinds of projects, but if the government is paying money it should get more than the pleasure of Mike Ilitch making tons of money. The government should get a slice of the revenues or some other benefit.

If the government just wanted to spend a bunch of money to rebuild a part of the city it could just send a few hundred million dollars to HUD and they could build it and then they would own it and reap the benefits. I know that's not really how things work anymore, but still. :|

[Shollin]

I think it would be good for the government to support these kinds of projects, but if the government is paying money it should get more than the pleasure of Mike Ilitch making tons of money. The government should get a slice of the revenues or some other benefit.

If the government just wanted to spend a bunch of money to rebuild a part of the city it could just send a few hundred million dollars to HUD and they could build it and then they would own it and reap the benefits. I know that's not really how things work anymore, but still. :|

Detroit does get a share of the revenue for Joe Louis. It's typically how lease deals work

[ghettopalmetto]

Cleveland's is in their downtown.

Ditto baltimore.

Pittsburgh?

Cincinnati?

The areas around Cleveland's professional stadiums [[Progressive Field / Quicken Loans Arena and Cleveland Browns Stadium) are dead zones on non-game days. You'd be hard pressed to find a single pedestrian walking by any one of these facilities. There is far more daily activity on Public Square, Prospect Avenue, and Euclid Avenue, just a couple blocks away.

The areas around Camden Yards are dead as hell--save for when the convention center across the street has an event. There are, however, three bars across the street from the ballpark that see a handful of customers for lunch.

Cincinnati's riverfront stadia don't even have "spinoff" development. The "entertainment district" is across the river--in KENTUCKY.

If you want to create a lively, populated area, you have to do it for more than 4 hours a day, half the calendar year. Would you stake personal money on an investment that has, at best, a maximum success of 12%? I'd rather invest my money where I can earn returns 100% of the time.

[Hermod]

The ranking, as I understand it, include numerous things like history, international importance, etc. In those, Detroit has it all over those other cities

Yes, Babe Ruth was a great baseball player, but I can hit better than Babe Ruth because he is dead and I am still alive. Detroit is dead, but Pittsburgh retains a glimmer of life.

[JVB]

Is the argument that stadiums don't produce any economic benefit, or that they don't produce as much as projected?

If anyone is actually arguing that sports stadiums don't produce any economic benefit they're an idiot. Talk to anyone that works in a business near one. If they're arguing that they don't produce as much as projected, when does anything?

As long as the money doesn't come from schools, public safety, etc then I don't see the problem. How much did DPS lose as a result of Comerica and Ford Field? How much did DPD/DFD lose to them? I don't know what those numbers are, but I think that's the real issue. If the tax is going to come from some extra casino tax or something then I don't see a problem.

[ghettopalmetto]

Is the argument that stadiums don't produce any economic benefit, or that they don't produce as much as projected?

If anyone is actually arguing that sports stadiums don't produce any economic benefit they're an idiot. Talk to anyone that works in a business near one. If they're arguing that they don't produce as much as projected, when does anything?

I don't think anyone is saying that there is *no* economic benefit. After all, Ilitch stands to rake in millions in sales of suites and club seats.

The question is, for hundreds of millions of dollars in public investment, can the public obtain a higher Return on Investment through other means? This is about getting the best return for the taxpayer, vis-a-vis the best return for one particular billionaire, who has plenty of his own money with which to construct an arena if he so desired.

[Jason]

Detroit does get a share of the revenue for Joe Louis. It's typically how lease deals work

It's my understanding that the city built and paid for the Joe and that they completely own it.

What is the ownership arrangement with Comerica Park and Ford Field, and what's typical nowadays for new arenas?

[aj3647]

so a handful, and i use that generously, of concerts are there each summer so that makes the difference? come on.

I didn't say it makes a difference, I said it doesn't always sit empty and useless on non-game days...because it doesn't. A week's worth of NHL events was scheduled to be held at Comerica at the end of the month leading up to the NHL Winter Classic. Unfortunately the Winter Classic was cancelled due to the player lockout, but the point remains, Comerica DOES get used for stuff other than Tigers' baseball despite false claims to the contrary.

Over the summer, Comerica played host to the Michigan High School baseball all-star game and the Detroit Catholic League baseball championship game amongst others. Michigan State and Central Michigan played a game there back in May.

You can event host your own event there:

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/det/ba...ents/index.jsp

Weddings...bar/bat mitzvahs
product launches...corporate meetings
speaker events...press conferences
holiday parties...fundraisers...luncheons
"team building" exercises
corporate retreats...breakfast meetings
and more!

But I guess since it's not packed to the rafters 365 days a year, it's a totally useless addition to downtown.

[JVB]

I don't think anyone is saying that there is *no* economic benefit. After all, Ilitch stands to rake in millions in sales of suites and club seats.

Aside from Mr. Illitch, who will likely be dead before this is built, business owners in the surrounding area also clearly benefit from it, and therefore the city collects additional taxes as a result. You keep trying to make it seem like the only person to benefit is the owner - he stands to benefit the most, as he should since it's his team and mostly his investment, but don't pretend nobody else benefits.

The question is, for hundreds of millions of dollars in public investment, can the public obtain a higher Return on Investment through other means? This is about getting the best return for the taxpayer, vis-a-vis the best return for one particular billionaire, who has plenty of his own money with which to construct an arena if he so desired.

I don't pretend to be an expert on this proposal, but where did you see "hundreds of millions of dollars in public investment" in the proposal? I honestly don't know how much tax money is part of the plan, or where it is coming form, which is why I ask.

[Novine]

The money comes from property taxes that the DDA skims off from any increases in property values of downtown properties. The DDA then funnels that money back into the downtown area. Revenues that could otherwise benefit other areas of the city instead can only be spent downtown. Under the Ilitch scheme, these revenues would go to benefit Ilitch alone. Ilitch wants to be able to have the taxes he pays come right back into his project. Wouldn't it be great if all of us could have such a deal.

[southen]

I didn't say it makes a difference, I said it doesn't always sit empty and useless on non-game days...because it doesn't. A week's worth of NHL events was scheduled to be held at Comerica at the end of the month leading up to the NHL Winter Classic. Unfortunately the Winter Classic was cancelled due to the player lockout, but the point remains, Comerica DOES get used for stuff other than Tigers' baseball despite false claims to the contrary.

Over the summer, Comerica played host to the Michigan High School baseball all-star game and the Detroit Catholic League baseball championship game amongst others. Michigan State and Central Michigan played a game there back in May.

You can event host your own event there:

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/det/ba...ents/index.jsp



But I guess since it's not packed to the rafters 365 days a year, it's a totally useless addition to downtown.

we get those winter classic events every year eh? your argument involves high school games? I retract my previous statements knowing that the catholic league championship was there. I can't believe illitch wasn't touting those things before building the stadium...

youre missing the point completely. just because it hosts a few events outside of baseball doesn't make it a year round venue helping businesses and creating a climate for residential developments to occur. I'm glad it's there, but the argument is about spinoff and what the area does when there aren't events happening.

[ghettopalmetto]

Aside from Mr. Illitch, who will likely be dead before this is built, business owners in the surrounding area also clearly benefit from it, and therefore the city collects additional taxes as a result. You keep trying to make it seem like the only person to benefit is the owner - he stands to benefit the most, as he should since it's his team and mostly his investment, but don't pretend nobody else benefits.

Business owners also benefit from residents, workers, and hotel guests. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't base the entire profitability of my enterprise on a few hours a day of half the year. Event traffic by itself just isn't consistent enough to sustain a business. Which may be why Comerica Park has had a spotty record with its leasable street-level space.

[JVB]

just because it hosts a few events outside of baseball doesn't make it a year round venue helping businesses and creating a climate for residential developments to occur.

Does anything run year round? I think some of you are looking at the stadiums like it's the whole puzzle without realizing it's just a piece of that puzzle - a big piece, but just a piece. Does the DIA do more for downtown/midtown business? The Opera House? The FOX? Campus Martius? Cobo? All these things fit together to make downtown what it is, but none of them alone can or should be expected to do the job.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't base the entire profitability of my enterprise on a few hours a day of half the year. Event traffic by itself just isn't consistent enough to sustain a business. Which may be why Comerica Park has had a spotty record with its leasable street-level space.

Can you name anything else that brought anywhere close to 3 million people downtown this year? Didn't think so.