Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[Shollin]

"People beg for development and then don't want to pay for it."

You're right, people don't want to subsidize the profits of multi-millionaires.

We're already subsidizing all the welfare recipients in Detroit, the criminals in our jails, the DIA, Cobo Hall, so why not something that may net some positive and create future development.

[DetroitPlanner]

We're already subsidizing all the welfare recipients in Detroit, the criminals in our jails, the DIA, Cobo Hall, so why not something that may net some positive and create future development.

You're using faulty logic, we subsidize the welfare recipients because they are needy. Yes some may be on the take, but many are just plain poor. It is the moral thing to do.

We subsidize jails to keep the offenders from messing with us. It is an investment in our sanity, without them it would be chaos/anarchy!

As far as the DIA and Cobo? They generate revenue and provide us with entertainment, and culture to boot.

Municipalities are getting played by the corporations who know that if we say no, someone else will say yes and we will lose any development. Even Walmart does this.

[emu steve]

I have a question:

One of the newspapers suggest that the legislator who is writing the bill indicates that he believes the location will be behind the Fox.

We have discussed many times a possible location: Behind the Fox, Woodward and the Fisher, and by the Motor City Casino.

My question, given that the planned development is MUCH larger than simply a new arena which of the three locations [[or combinations of the three) best meets the development of this mega-project?

When we've discussed this in the past [[many times) we never discussed it as a 650M project. It was an arena and parking with little spin off development.

For example, putting the arena on Woodward Ave would eat up a lot of surface parking but leave all of the empty space between the Fox unused.

Do you put an arena there and put parking garages [[yeah, I know) behind the Fox and build housing, retail, etc. around the arena?

Do you put the arena behind the Fox but leave the Woodward/Fisher Ilitch holdings open for any kind of development they are able to sketch out?

Why own property as far north as Woodward/Charlotte if not being used as a site for an arena? Can the Ilitches develop THAT much property not adjacent to an arena?

[emu steve]

One other question:

According to the proposed legislation, is there any implications if the new arena is built south or north of the Fisher?

Is the district being created designed to facilitate an arena outside the CBD [[which I assume ends at the Fisher) or is simply for zoning and taxation purposes?

I assume two of the three sites discussed are outside the CBD with only the Fox site inside.

[Bham1982]

We're already subsidizing all the welfare recipients in Detroit, the criminals in our jails, the DIA, Cobo Hall, so why not something that may net some positive and create future development.

Because there is no net positive.

The Red Wings already play downtown. There would be no net positive having them play the exact same number of games, a few blocks to the north this time.

The only net positive is in Illitch's pocketbook. He's all tapped out trying to turn the Tigers into the Yankees, so wants the taxpayer to lay out a half-billion for luxury suites.

If Illitch wants a new arena, he should go ahead and build it. There's nothing stopping him. If there are any zoning or local issues at stake, he can work with Detroit on the particulars. The taxpayers are still paying for Ford Field, Comerica Park and other "events centers".

[Bham1982]

My question, given that the planned development is MUCH larger than simply a new arena which of the three locations [[or combinations of the three) best meets the development of this mega-project?

He needs a huge property because basically 100% of fans drive, and he wants to control the profits from the invevitable bars and restaurants.

If this is ever built, there will be tons of parking and likely some space for Buffalo Wild Wings and other fine dining establishments.

[emu steve]

Because there is no net positive.

The Red Wings already play downtown. There would be no net positive having them play the exact same number of games, a few blocks to the north this time.

The only net positive is in Illitch's pocketbook. He's all tapped out trying to turn the Tigers into the Yankees, so wants the taxpayer to lay out a half-billion for luxury suites.

If Illitch wants a new arena, he should go ahead and build it. There's nothing stopping him. If there are any zoning or local issues at stake, he can work with Detroit on the particulars. The taxpayers are still paying for Ford Field, Comerica Park and other "events centers".

If I read some other posts correctly, that isn't correct.

Playing at JLA actually does MORE for Ilitch but LESS for the city.

This is supposed to be part of a 650M development which could be HUGE for the CITY and whole area.

This is not an arena + parking structures.

In my post above, I'm trying to guess is how much [[and which) vacant lands will Ilitch put to use.

IF he can develop the land behind the Fox [[even with parking structures to replace lost surface parking on Woodward between Temple [[?), that is a big plus.

If he puts up a beautiful arena on Woodward somewhere between the Fisher and say Temple, that is a big plus.

If he can develop some land near the Motor City Casino that is a big plus.

And about Ford Field, Comerica Park, etc.

Take them out of Detroit and there is no Detroit in Detroit.

There would have been nothing for Gilbert etc. to build on...

[rb336]

"Which Party is that?"

The Republicans, who are sponsoring this bill and would have to vote it for it to pass. The same party that says government shouldn't be picking winners or losers but has no problem funneling taxpayer money to Mike Ilitch.

Providing tax breaks for developing land that is mostly vacant and/or derelict isn't "funneling taxpayer money."

[JVB]

Because there is no net positive.

The Red Wings already play downtown. There would be no net positive having them play the exact same number of games, a few blocks to the north this time.

The JLA is actually a terrible location. I'm not a hockey fan but I've been to a few games and the problem is there is really nothing to do within walking distance. 2 of the 3 proposed sites put the new arena in a much better position to keep fans downtown spending money before/after games.

From a purely selfish standpoint, Illitch would be better served by keeping his paid off arena rather than investing hundreds of millions of dollars into something new. But when you're 80+ years old you care more about leaving a positive legacy behind than accruing more wealth.

[emu steve]

The JLA is actually a terrible location. I'm not a hockey fan but I've been to a few games and the problem is there is really nothing to do within walking distance. 2 of the 3 proposed sites put the new arena in a much better position to keep fans downtown spending money before/after games.

From a purely selfish standpoint, Illitch would be better served by keeping his paid off arena rather than investing hundreds of millions of dollars into something new. But when you're 80+ years old you care more about leaving a positive legacy behind than accruing more wealth.

I agree completely.

[Gistok]

He needs a huge property because basically 100% of fans drive, and he wants to control the profits from the invevitable bars and restaurants.

If this is ever built, there will be tons of parking and likely some space for Buffalo Wild Wings and other fine dining establishments.

Are you really that blind to realize that there are likely to be fewer people who will get directly into their car [[if they parked at JLA) and just drive home, rather than enjoy an entertainment district. And just like there are restaurants downtown that have bus service to JLA, those same restaurants will instead provide the service to the new arena. And if there are new and more bars and restaurants downtown... doesn't that mean more jobs and spin off?

And which taxes exactly are directly impacting the taxpayers?? Income on Oil Leases on state land... that's got to be a burden on everyone, huh? Can you name any others that are a burden??

Every time I read one of your posts... "the glass is always half empty"...

And one last thing... there already IS tons of parking... empty dirt lots that will be filled in with construction and an expanded entertainment district... but you don't see anything positive in all that do you?

With the move away from JLA, the sub-par arena can be demolished for the next expansion of Cobo, which is likely inevitable anyway.

Let's at least wait and see the specifics before rendering your verdict...

[jackie5275]

But when you're 80+ years old you care more about leaving a positive legacy behind than accruing more wealth.

Unless you're Matty Moroun. Then it's the opposite.

[Novine]

"Providing tax breaks for developing land that is mostly vacant and/or derelict isn't "funneling taxpayer money.""

It absolutely involves funneling taxpayer money to Mike Ilitch and anyone else who gets those kinds of tax breaks. When that land is developed, it requires public services to support it. Who's paying for that? Not Mike Ilitch. The taxes he pays get siphoned off by the DDA and then gets returned back to Mike Ilitch's pocket under this legislative scheme. Then who pays for the cops and EMS and streets and other services required? Every other taxpayer in the city of Detroit. Instead of those tax dollars going to pay for those services, they go to Mike Ilitch. It's amazing that there's never a shortage of suckers willing to shill for "poor" millionaires and billionaires telling us how fortunate we should be to subsidize their bottom line.

[Shollin]

Are you really that blind to realize that there are likely to be fewer people who will get directly into their car [[if they parked at JLA) and just drive home, rather than enjoy an entertainment district. And just like there are restaurants downtown that have bus service to JLA, those same restaurants will instead provide the service to the new arena. And if there are new and more bars and restaurants downtown... doesn't that mean more jobs and spin off?

And which taxes exactly are directly impacting the taxpayers?? Income on Oil Leases on state land... that's got to be a burden on everyone, huh? Can you name any others that are a burden??

Every time I read one of your posts... "the glass is always half empty"...

And one last thing... there already IS tons of parking... empty dirt lots that will be filled in with construction and an expanded entertainment district... but you don't see anything positive in all that do you?

With the move away from JLA, the sub-par arena can be demolished for the next expansion of Cobo, which is likely inevitable anyway.

Let's at least wait and see the specifics before rendering your verdict...

Not to mention the events and concerts it can lure away from the Palace. With a new entertainment district around the Masonic Temple, I think we'll see increased use of the Temple. You have stable neighborhoods to the north and south, so some infill would go a long way. You would then have a stable neighborhood all the way up the the Highland Park border.

[bailey]

Every time I read one of your posts... "the glass is always half empty"...

.....

Let's at least wait and see the specifics before rendering your verdict...

The problem is that we've heard it all before as this article does a good job summing up....

What’s more, we’ve been down this road too often with the Ilitch organization.

Comerica Park was supposed to anchor the redevelopment of Ilitch-owned property near the Fox Theater. [[UPDATE: In fact, Sports Business Daily reports the Ilitches twice, in 1996 and 2000, announced plans for a new entertainment district anchored by Comerica Park.) In reality, small-scale entrepreneurs like Sean Harrington and Jerry Belanger have turned Park Avenue into a thriving entertainment district in spite of the Ilitch real estate holdings rather than because of them.


In 2006, just before Super Bowl XL, Chris and Atanas Ilitch announced plans to renovate the vacant Detroit Life Building across the street from long-vibrant Town Pump. They also said the company was open to proposals to restore the vacant but iconic United Artists Building. Both structures remain rotting shells.


At other times, the Ilitches made a public push to get Quicken to build a headquarters on their property, tried to attract major retailers downtown, and possibly considered capping I-75. None of it happened.


I’m not saying a new hockey arena is a bad idea. Joe Louis Arena is among the NHL’s oldest venues, plus a windowless building on Detroit’s picturesque riverfront never made sense. It would be great to see the scheme floated today come to fruition.


Clearly, the Ilitches think this “innovative district” is the carrot they need to offer to win public funding for their hockey arena state-of-the-art, multi-purpose events center, but given the track record, it’s not something anyone should count on.


Let's see work begin in earnest on those offices and storefronts before we put up this a nickel of taxpayer money for the new hockey arena.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...t_movie_before

I 100% agree with Wattrick here. Illitch needs to put up or shut up. These semiannual vauge press releases need to stop.... and it would be nice if anyone in our fawning local media would actually call them out on this.

[rb336]

"Providing tax breaks for developing land that is mostly vacant and/or derelict isn't "funneling taxpayer money.""

It absolutely involves funneling taxpayer money to Mike Ilitch and anyone else who gets those kinds of tax breaks. When that land is developed, it requires public services to support it. Who's paying for that? Not Mike Ilitch. The taxes he pays get siphoned off by the DDA and then gets returned back to Mike Ilitch's pocket under this legislative scheme. Then who pays for the cops and EMS and streets and other services required? Every other taxpayer in the city of Detroit. Instead of those tax dollars going to pay for those services, they go to Mike Ilitch. It's amazing that there's never a shortage of suckers willing to shill for "poor" millionaires and billionaires telling us how fortunate we should be to subsidize their bottom line.

Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one.

[Shollin]

Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one.

As bad as Joe Louis is, it generated 2.6 million for the city of Detroit and that is just on the stadium alone.

[gthomas]

A graphic of the possible locations from today's Freep:



A part of me says put it in Foxtown, but another part says to stick it up on Woodward where it will have the biggest multiplier effect in terms of spin-off with the streetcar going in. That area west of Woodward really is an embarrassing entrance coming into downtown along Woodward.

West of Woodward


John T. Greilick / The Detroit News

[Spartan]

A graphic of the possible locations from today's Freep:

A part of me says put it in Foxtown, but another part says to stick it up on Woodward where it will have the biggest multiplier effect in terms of spin-off with the streetcar going in. That area west of Woodward really is an embarrassing entrance coming into downtown along Woodward.

I'd love if they put it on Woodward, and the Fox area wouldn't be bad either, but I'm worried they might put it up near Motor City. It's very isolated now, and Illitch might want to give that area a boost to try to draw more people to Motor City. The other two locations would make way more sense though.

[emu steve]

I'd love if they put it on Woodward, and the Fox area wouldn't be bad either, but I'm worried they might put it up near Motor City. It's very isolated now, and Illitch might want to give that area a boost to try to draw more people to Motor City. The other two locations would make way more sense though.

In the many iteration of where-should-the-arena-go threads we always just assumed an arena + some parking garages.

Now I look at the sites and try to determine how an arena, parking, entertainment, housing, commercial office space, etc. would fit into the mosaic.

How to blend an arena + office + housing?

IF the arena was on Woodward just north of the Fisher what would fit nicely around it [[beside parking garages)?

Would the Ilitches put up a few more parking garages behind the Fox to compensate for the lost surface parking on Woodward from the Fisher to near Temple?

Or how about a large parking garage the Fisher between Woodward and Park [[with entrance off the first cross street?) Henry?

Do esthe Arena go on Woodward between Henry and Temple?

What goes behind the arena? How about the two hotel buildings which could be renovated?

Any new housing between Park and Cass from Henry toward say Temple?

What ever it is it has to be BIG ENOUGH to singlehandedly change a neighborhood.

Just a few thoughts...

[ghettopalmetto]

Oh, how I love the term "entertainment district". It doesn't reek of Soviet-era fascism. Not one bit.

"Welcome to Detroit! This is the workers district, where people work. This is one of our residential districts, where people live. If you want education, you head to the university-and-museum district. If you want fun, you'll find it in the entertainment district, where bread and circuses await. If you need to eat, you go to the restaurant district..."

God forbid there is more than one area in a city where people are allowed to entertain themselves. Likewise, God forbid anyone build mixed-use neighborhoods that have more than one purpose, or are populated for more than one-quarter of the time. It always has to be some preconceived, ticky-tacky, corporate-board-room-developer-wet-dream-with-chain-restaurants bullshit. Hell, if you want that, Atlanta and Charlotte already exist for your enjoyment.

Ilitch has been living off Detroit's boob for long enough. My only question is, how much public demolition money will he receive to build the monstrous parkingplex that he'll inevitably require?

[Novine]

"Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one."

Except that independent studies done of these kinds of deals show exactly the opposite. Giving X doesn't lead to X+Y. That's doubly true when Y is being funneled back to Mike Ilitch. Even in Detroit, that math doesn't add up.

[hybridy]

The latest issue of Architectural Record has a story about this exact type of project/scope. Not surprised by any of these quotes. Strange they didn't think to include Detroit:

"The high costs and tepid pace of redevelopment are not unique to Cincinnati, and have made some cities leery of financing big-league sports facilities with public dollars. Still, cities continue to build."

"And critics maintain that professional sports facilities are generally poor generators of economic activity."

“Economists have found very little impact on sales-tax receipts and per capita income.”

Most interesting quote, "Yet as Cincinnati has learned, football and baseball stadiums aren't busy enough to ignite the redevelopment process. NFL teams play only seven or eight games at home; baseball stadiums can host 80 dates or more. Arenas generate more economic value. Because they can mix basketball, hockey, amateur sports, concerts, and family events, they can be busy more than 200 days a year."
http://archrecord.construction.com/f...ic-Engines.asp

[southen]

i was reading that earlier and found it very interesting. one of the things that is different, at least in my mind, is that those stadiums were used as a catalyst to promote residential growth while this one is theoretically building it at the same time of construction of the venue. whether or not that guarantees success is another thing.

[Gistok]

The problem is that we've heard it all before as this article does a good job summing up....
http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...t_movie_before

I 100% agree with Wattrick here. Illitch needs to put up or shut up. These semiannual vauge press releases need to stop.... and it would be nice if anyone in our fawning local media would actually call them out on this.

Bailey, I agree 100% with you on that... this is the last credible moment he has left. If it's not happening this time, then he has lost all credibility. I will even agree with the announced but not yet implemented plans for the Life Building.... and then there's the Fine Arts facade on W. Adams... waiting... waiting... waiting...

The only thing I disagree with that article on is the United Artists Building/Theatre. At least [[belatedly I agree)... he's finally done something to stabilize that complex.