Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[Shollin]

Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one.

As bad as Joe Louis is, it generated 2.6 million for the city of Detroit and that is just on the stadium alone.

[gthomas]

A graphic of the possible locations from today's Freep:



A part of me says put it in Foxtown, but another part says to stick it up on Woodward where it will have the biggest multiplier effect in terms of spin-off with the streetcar going in. That area west of Woodward really is an embarrassing entrance coming into downtown along Woodward.

West of Woodward


John T. Greilick / The Detroit News

[Spartan]

A graphic of the possible locations from today's Freep:

A part of me says put it in Foxtown, but another part says to stick it up on Woodward where it will have the biggest multiplier effect in terms of spin-off with the streetcar going in. That area west of Woodward really is an embarrassing entrance coming into downtown along Woodward.

I'd love if they put it on Woodward, and the Fox area wouldn't be bad either, but I'm worried they might put it up near Motor City. It's very isolated now, and Illitch might want to give that area a boost to try to draw more people to Motor City. The other two locations would make way more sense though.

[emu steve]

I'd love if they put it on Woodward, and the Fox area wouldn't be bad either, but I'm worried they might put it up near Motor City. It's very isolated now, and Illitch might want to give that area a boost to try to draw more people to Motor City. The other two locations would make way more sense though.

In the many iteration of where-should-the-arena-go threads we always just assumed an arena + some parking garages.

Now I look at the sites and try to determine how an arena, parking, entertainment, housing, commercial office space, etc. would fit into the mosaic.

How to blend an arena + office + housing?

IF the arena was on Woodward just north of the Fisher what would fit nicely around it [[beside parking garages)?

Would the Ilitches put up a few more parking garages behind the Fox to compensate for the lost surface parking on Woodward from the Fisher to near Temple?

Or how about a large parking garage the Fisher between Woodward and Park [[with entrance off the first cross street?) Henry?

Do esthe Arena go on Woodward between Henry and Temple?

What goes behind the arena? How about the two hotel buildings which could be renovated?

Any new housing between Park and Cass from Henry toward say Temple?

What ever it is it has to be BIG ENOUGH to singlehandedly change a neighborhood.

Just a few thoughts...

[hybridy]

The latest issue of Architectural Record has a story about this exact type of project/scope. Not surprised by any of these quotes. Strange they didn't think to include Detroit:

"The high costs and tepid pace of redevelopment are not unique to Cincinnati, and have made some cities leery of financing big-league sports facilities with public dollars. Still, cities continue to build."

"And critics maintain that professional sports facilities are generally poor generators of economic activity."

“Economists have found very little impact on sales-tax receipts and per capita income.”

Most interesting quote, "Yet as Cincinnati has learned, football and baseball stadiums aren't busy enough to ignite the redevelopment process. NFL teams play only seven or eight games at home; baseball stadiums can host 80 dates or more. Arenas generate more economic value. Because they can mix basketball, hockey, amateur sports, concerts, and family events, they can be busy more than 200 days a year."
http://archrecord.construction.com/f...ic-Engines.asp

[ghettopalmetto]

Oh, how I love the term "entertainment district". It doesn't reek of Soviet-era fascism. Not one bit.

"Welcome to Detroit! This is the workers district, where people work. This is one of our residential districts, where people live. If you want education, you head to the university-and-museum district. If you want fun, you'll find it in the entertainment district, where bread and circuses await. If you need to eat, you go to the restaurant district..."

God forbid there is more than one area in a city where people are allowed to entertain themselves. Likewise, God forbid anyone build mixed-use neighborhoods that have more than one purpose, or are populated for more than one-quarter of the time. It always has to be some preconceived, ticky-tacky, corporate-board-room-developer-wet-dream-with-chain-restaurants bullshit. Hell, if you want that, Atlanta and Charlotte already exist for your enjoyment.

Ilitch has been living off Detroit's boob for long enough. My only question is, how much public demolition money will he receive to build the monstrous parkingplex that he'll inevitably require?

[Novine]

"Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one."

Except that independent studies done of these kinds of deals show exactly the opposite. Giving X doesn't lead to X+Y. That's doubly true when Y is being funneled back to Mike Ilitch. Even in Detroit, that math doesn't add up.

[rb336]

"Even with tax breaks, the developed land will pay more in taxes than it does currently. Add to that additional taxes from new businesses, residents and employees and it will end up a net gain. It's a "you give us X now, and you will get X+Y" deal. That is not a funnel. It's an investment. In this case, a good one."

Except that independent studies done of these kinds of deals show exactly the opposite. Giving X doesn't lead to X+Y. That's doubly true when Y is being funneled back to Mike Ilitch. Even in Detroit, that math doesn't add up.

I'd love to read one. please provide a link

[southen]

i was reading that earlier and found it very interesting. one of the things that is different, at least in my mind, is that those stadiums were used as a catalyst to promote residential growth while this one is theoretically building it at the same time of construction of the venue. whether or not that guarantees success is another thing.

[gthomas]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

[Gistok]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

Actually a bridge like that would be better for Park Ave., whose bridge was torn down during the last Fisher Fwy. redo. Park Ave. already has a lot of night life in some parts. An arena west of Park in Foxtown would ideal... although if it were north of I-75, then Park Ave. would still be an ideal choice.

I bet this bridge in Bath England [[called Pulteney Bridge) was the inspiration for the one in Columbus.... from the foreground until the dome in the midground... all shops are on a bridge...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pu...idge_shops.jpg

[DetroitPlanner]

Ilitch check this out..This can be a cool way to connect downtown and midtown over I-75 freeway on Woodward, include retail and restaurants.

Looks like someone in Toronto went to Ohio State University.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=columb...lin,+Ohio&z=19

In fact it is OSU South Campus!!

[gthomas]

Now that was quick...

Quote:

New Red Wings arena in Detroit Ok'd by Michigan Senate LANSING, MI - A divided Michigan Senate on Wednesday approved fast-tracked legislation that the Ilitch family says is needed for an events center that could house a new Red Wings arena in downtown Detroit. The proposed mixed-use development would be funded by private investment and existing dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority. No new taxes would be needed to build the development, but lawmakers are passing a bill to allow the DDA to continue to get money for these kinds of developments. The legislation was sent back to the House for final action before year's end.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

[michimoby]

Now that was quick...

Quote:

New Red Wings arena in Detroit Ok'd by Michigan Senate LANSING, MI - A divided Michigan Senate on Wednesday approved fast-tracked legislation that the Ilitch family says is needed for an events center that could house a new Red Wings arena in downtown Detroit. The proposed mixed-use development would be funded by private investment and existing dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority. No new taxes would be needed to build the development, but lawmakers are passing a bill to allow the DDA to continue to get money for these kinds of developments. The legislation was sent back to the House for final action before year's end.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

Pardon my language, but how the FUCK can this pass only two days after being pushed through, yet we've been waiting for an RTA bill to be passed for over a decade????

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

[Novine]

Studies from the past 25 years and recent articles highlighting the research done in this area.


"Yet, with a unanimity that is rare in social science research, academic studies have found that professional sports franchises and facilities generate little or no job creation or income growth. For example, "natural experiments" of the economic impact on cities of work stoppages in baseball and hockey during the last two decades found no impact on retail activity or employment in affected cities, an indicator of the trivial weight of professional sports in metropolitan economies."


Is There an Economic Rationale For Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? [[1987)
http://heartland.org/policy-document...ports-stadiums


Should Cities Pay for Sports Facilities? [[2001)
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publicatio...ticles/?id=468


Newark Arena’s Economic Impact Unclear [[2007)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/ny...04arenanj.html


A Closer Look at Stadium Subsidies [[2008)
http://www.american.com/archive/2008...dium-subsidies


Do Basketball Arenas Spur Economic Development? [[2012)
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/job...elopment/2804/


No economic rationale for subsidizing an arena [[2012)
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion...178214961.html

[rb336]

Is There an Economic Rationale For Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? [[1987)
http://heartland.org/policy-document...ports-stadiums

When the very first one you list comes from the same people who gave us the "there is no proof that smoking cigarettes is dangerous" and "global warming is fiction" bullshit, and the second is written by a fellow of THAT SAME INSTITUTION, I have no reason to find any validity to them. They claim things like

Although sports facilities certainly generate tax revenues from their sales, the pertinent question is whether these revenues are above and beyond what would have occurred in the region anyway."

they then fail to provide any comparables [[aka "support for their hypotheses)

One of the articles DOES state

A new or revamped stadium can produce some benefit, Dr. Humphrey[[says - oops to NYT copy editor), if the project is integrated with things like residential housing and retail stores and coordinated into “a complete local redevelopment plan.”

That is EXACTLY what the Ilitches' plan does

Further, look at the area around the stadiums - then look at it BEFORE the stadiums. Empty edifices, nothing going on.

[Novine]

Wattrick takes a swing at the happy talk coming from the Ilitch boosters.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...y_arena_debate

[ghettopalmetto]

Wattrick takes a swing at the happy talk coming from the Ilitch boosters.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...y_arena_debate

Beyond the economics, it seems that in whatever city, the immediate area of the arena is a dead zone most of the time. Even around Verizon Center in DC--which is hailed as a model for seamless integration of an arena into the urban fabric and transit network--it's the deadest spot in the neighborhood, save for the hour before and after an event. The adjacent blocks, with the restaurants, bars, museums, and movie theaters, have more pedestrian activity the rest of the time. Is a hockey arena going to generate throngs of Saturday afternoon shoppers or Sunday brunchgoers in downtown Detroit?

If the end goal is to build this arena "in order to spark redevelopment"...why not just sink money directly into bars and restaurants? Seems that would be a more cost-effective way to eliminate a middleman, and generate more consistent foot traffic. And there would at least be a mechanism present where the City and State could earn repayment [[with interest) on their investment.

I think, however, that the unstated purpose of such an arena is to funnel cash--via high-dollar suite and club seat sales--into Mike Ilitch's bank account. If this public parasite were genuinely interested in his legacy, as claimed above, he would put forth his own money instead of resorting to his Welfare Queen act yet again. Andrew Carnegie, this guy is not.

[emu steve]

Beyond the economics, it seems that in whatever city, the immediate area of the arena is a dead zone most of the time. Even around Verizon Center in DC--which is hailed as a model for seamless integration of an arena into the urban fabric and transit network--it's the deadest spot in the neighborhood, save for the hour before and after an event. The adjacent blocks, with the restaurants, bars, museums, and movie theaters, have more pedestrian activity the rest of the time. Is a hockey arena going to generate throngs of Saturday afternoon shoppers or Sunday brunchgoers in downtown Detroit?

If the end goal is to build this arena "in order to spark redevelopment"...why not just sink money directly into bars and restaurants? Seems that would be a more cost-effective way to eliminate a middleman, and generate more consistent foot traffic. And there would at least be a mechanism present where the City and State could earn repayment [[with interest) on their investment.

I think, however, that the unstated purpose of such an arena is to funnel cash--via high-dollar suite and club seat sales--into Mike Ilitch's bank account. If this public parasite were genuinely interested in his legacy, as claimed above, he would put forth his own money instead of resorting to his Welfare Queen act yet again. Andrew Carnegie, this guy is not.

I'd like to challenge your 'facts'.

I live in the D.C. area and quite familiar with that area.

The Gallery Place area which encompasses the arena, the whole area, subway stop, etc. is among the most vibrant areas in D.C. It is NYC in D.C.

Likewise, the Nationals' Park area in Southeast [[M. Street and S Capitol to be exact) was once once an old gritty industrial area devoid of business, people, etc. People didn't even drive through that area unless they wanted to go to the out-of-the-way strip clubs.

For every example of stupid development placing a stadium or arena, probably in the 'burbs, and getting nothing significant of it [[I really am not fond of Phoenix putting their facilities in far out Glendale, but Phoenix is nothing more than a suburb without a real downtown, to speak).

The are very nice articles what the new Brooklyn arena is doing for the area.

BOTTOM LINE:

What Detroit is and will do with Comerica, Ford Field and a new arena near by is EXACTLY the right way to invigorate a CBD.

Sorry guys, but Ilitch [[and I) will take that belief to our graves.

I've seen stupid sports facilities [[FedEx field in Landover, Md is about a dumb and dumb can get) and I've seen smart. Yankee Stadium to me is a waste - beautiful, luxurious facility in a completely non-nondescript neighbor. When I went to the new Yankee Stadium the year it opened, I went to the Tigers' game and immediately left. Stay for what????

[Bham1982]

I'd like to challenge your 'facts'.]

I live in the D.C. area and quite familiar with that area.

The Gallery Place area which encompasses the arena, the whole area, subway stop, etc. is among the most vibrant areas in D.C. It is NYC in D.C.

Yes and no.

Gallery Place is among the more vibrant areas of DC [[to call it a mini-NYC would be quite a stretch though), but it's more in spite of the arena.

The area is busy because it's a Metro transfer hub. The arena itself is the deadest block in that whole neighborhood.

Similarly, if you look at other urban arenas, they tend to be dead spaces. Even Comerica and Ford Field [[which are really nice facilities, built about as nicely as possible considering when they were built) have created a permanent dead space for everything east of Woodward.

As long as there's no event in that corner of Downtown [[which is most of the time), there's nothing but blank walls and empty parking lots. Granted, that area probably wouldn't look much different if the arenas had been built somewhere else [[and there are definite economic spinoffs for restaurant, bar hotel and parking lot operators), but it stretches the imagination to say that arenas build streetlife and activity.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes and no.

Gallery Place is among the more vibrant areas of DC [[to call it a mini-NYC would be quite a stretch though), but it's more in spite of the arena.

The area is busy because it's a Metro transfer hub. The arena itself is the deadest block in that whole neighborhood.

Similarly, if you look at other urban arenas, they tend to be dead spaces. Even Comerica and Ford Field [[which are really nice facilities, built about as nicely as possible considering when they were built) have created a permanent dead space for everything east of Woodward.

As long as there's no event in that corner of Downtown [[which is most of the time), there's nothing but blank walls and empty parking lots. Granted, that area probably wouldn't look much different if the arenas had been built somewhere else [[and there are definite economic spinoffs for restaurant, bar hotel and parking lot operators), but it stretches the imagination to say that arenas build streetlife and activity.

So it's not just me who is crazy.

What emu_steve isn't telling anyone, is how many blocks of the old [[and inhabited) Chinatown were destroyed in order to facilitate Abe Pollin's arena. All so they could have some bland chain restaurants who are able to pay six times the rent.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, Ilitch is recycling his Comerica Park rationale all over again. If Mike Ilitch wants to build an "entertainment district", can't he start by using the land he already owns along the east side of Woodward?If the populace of Michigan is dumb enough to fall for this again, then you deserve to get bent over.

[Shollin]

I prefer empty lots and derelict buildings instead of an arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

I prefer empty lots and derelict buildings instead of an arena.

Ilitch owns plenty of those too.

[Novine]

Hey Shillen', if this is such a grand idea, private investors will be lining up to underwrite Mr. I's visions for downtown. No need for Mr. I to feed at the public trough.

[Shollin]

Hey Shillen', if this is such a grand idea, private investors will be lining up to underwrite Mr. I's visions for downtown. No need for Mr. I to feed at the public trough.

Hey Niven If any investment in Detroit was a grand idea, investors would be linning up to underwrite any development in Detroit. The government needs to facilitate the development, just like they do with Dan Gilbert and the creative types and their start ups.