I-94 Expansion Project [[Roadway to Detroit's Future)

[Junkin4Life]

think about it....the overpasses on i 94 are slowly deteriorating

[Shollin]

First, let's look at facts regarding Chicago versus Philadelphia. In 2010, Chicago's population was 74% of the 1950 level. Philadelphia? OMG it's 74%. Detroit? 39%.

Next, I have in front of me a Rand McNally atlas from 1952. It shows I-94 [[then known as M-112) ending at roughly Michigan Ave/Ford Road, with the segment from there to the Lodge intersection under construction, and the Lodge to Vernier as proposed. The Lodge is under construction from Jefferson to West Grand, and West Grand to Wyoming is proposed. The Lodge alignment from Wyoming to Eight Mile/Greenfield/Norhtwestern is occupied by James Couzens highway, which I'm guessing was a surface-street precursor to the Lodge [[anyone know for sure?). I-75 wasn't even on the map at that point.

Third, Detroit built a tighter noose of freeways around downtown than any other major city I'm aware of. Taking Campus Martius as the center of downtown, the Lodge, I-75, and I-375 are all less than a mile away. This cut off downtown from, e.g., Midtown, Corktown, and Lafayette Park.

Fourth, ignoring New York, Los Angeles, and Washington [[always special cases), the cities among the top ten in 1950 that did the best job of keeping vibrant downtowns [[Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston) all had [[and have) rail transit from the suburbs into downtown so suburbanites don't have to face a commute in bumper-to-bumper traffic if they don't want to and have a convenient alternative.

Detroit in the 40s and 50s decided [[going along with its industry) to become the prime example of a 100% auto-dependent metro area. It's time to admit that model failed dismally.

The Loop has a lot of freeways surrounding it just like Detroit. You have the Dan Ryan which is 14 lanes to the south, the Eisenhower which runs right into downtown, and the Stevenson to the south. You also have Lake Shore Drive which is as close to a freeway as you can get without actually being one. Lets not forget all the freeways that then take you around Chicago and out of Chicago in every direction.

It's laughable to think freeways did Detroit in. It wasn't the economy, crime, riots or poor service.

[313WX]

The Loop has a lot of freeways surrounding it just like Detroit. You have the Dan Ryan which is 14 lanes to the south, the Eisenhower which runs right into downtown, and the Stevenson to the south. You also have Lake Shore Drive which is as close to a freeway as you can get without actually being one. Lets not forget all the freeways that then take you around Chicago and out of Chicago in every direction.

It's laughable to think freeways did Detroit in. It wasn't the economy, crime, riots or poor service.

I completely agree.

But how in the world does that justify the expansion of I-94, which after 25 pages, I have yet to hear a good argument for supporting it.

[Hermod]

Detroit in the 40s and 50s decided [[going along with its industry) to become the prime example of a 100% auto-dependent metro area. It's time to admit that model failed dismally.

1943. That was when Detroit decided to go with freeways. The final report was published in 1945, long before anyone had heard of an interstate highway system [[Eisenhower was still in Europe defeating the Nazis).

Detroit planned a web of freeways THROUGH Detroit. Only about 60 per cent of the freeway mileage in Detroit was ever built. The plan had a lot of freeways. They didn't extend outside the city boundaries. I can see the thinking being motivated by:

1. Detroit always had lousy cross-town traffic circulation whether by car or streetcar. A lot of the freeway network was built to alleviate this.

2. The city wanted to get the commuter and through traffic off the major radial roads to allow them to be used by shoppers and local traffic.

3. The wartime surge had really congested the city road network and envisioned post war auto expanision looked to make things even worse.
2.

[iheartthed]

True, but not every freeway in Detroit needed to remove a ton of people to build them. For example, much of the Lodge and all of the Southfield already had ROW. I-94, I-96, not so much. I-96 tried to mitigate the taking of homes by running it through industrial and retail areas. Unfortunately instead of taking population, this killed businesses. Past roughly Lahser I-96 was built without taking hardly any homes because it was planned to run down Schoolcraft. My mom grew up on 16th between the Blvd and Warren. When I-94 was brought through, it devastated her neighborhood, taking every house on her block... but hers.

Yeah, I am aware that some freeways were built in ROWs that already existed. But even those freeways had the effect of separating neighborhoods that were once connected.

[Shollin]

I completely agree.

But how in the world does that justify the expansion of I-94, which after 25 pages, I have yet to hear a good argument for supporting it.

What justifies expanding it is the bottle neck between 75 and 96 that usually happens every rush hour. I work in the McNamara building and when I lived in Harper Woods I took 94 to the Lodge everyday.

Speaking of Harper Woods, 94 completely bisects it and took out it's main street and it didn't turn into Detroit. Yet.

[313WX]

What justifies expanding it is the bottle neck between 75 and 96 that usually happens every rush hour. I work in the McNamara building and when I lived in Harper Woods I took 94 to the Lodge everyday.

So?

All cities have rush hour traffic jams on their expressways, including Chicago and Philadelphia.

I would be in favor of reopening 6 Mile to traffic before expanding I-94.

[Shollin]

So?

All cities have rush hour traffic jams on their expressways, including Chicago and Philadelphia.

I would be in favor of reopening 6 Mile to traffic before expanding I-94.

So? Believe it or not, I would rather get home from work in a reasonable time to be with my family. How would opening 6 mile help my situation when I was in Harper Woods since it didn't go to that side of town.

[Detroitnerd]

So? Believe it or not, I would rather get home from work in a reasonable time to be with my family. How would opening 6 mile help my situation when I was in Harper Woods since it didn't go to that side of town.

I had to wait in traffic for 20 minutes to get home from work to my family!

[Shollin]

I'm curious why you feel the need to mock someone who doesn't buy into your vision that we should all live in an urban area with no freeways?

FWIW, it takes longer than 20 minutes to get from downtown to Harper Woods.

[Detroitnerd]

I posted to an online forum and somebody made fun of me!

[Shollin]

Oh noes, they're widening 94 so I'm going to whine and cry about it on a forum

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm all in favor of a fight against expressways. The ring of freeways around downtown Detroit sure seems like a good idea when the didn't exist, and downtown commerce was booming. Perhaps Ray1936 or someone a little older than me can remind people of just how busy and congested the world was pre-freeway.

Some here have touted how successful Manhattan is -- and without freeways. Of course they are successful. And they are laser focused on transportation and doing everything they can to increase the movement of traffic on the island. They know just how close they are to being chocked to death by congestion. Every 10th of an MPH is monitored. Constant adjustments to everything trying to keep their blood flowing.

But that said, I'm OK with efforts to minimize freeways within cities.

What's not OK is being in denial about the importance of movement in Detroit along one of only two ways to get THROUGH the city. These aren't local trucks. They're trucks from Ohio heading to a warehouse in Mt. Clemens. Or to the 'Poletown' plant from Oshawa.

MDOT wants to spend money to improve Detroit. No, let's chase that money away and encourage them to spend it on another lane of M59.

Someday, someplace -- the fight against freeways should happen. But this is the last place to fight. MDOT is for once doing something right. Let's focus their energy to minimize the impact -- but not fight the very idea of commerce.

[Shollin]

Why must we fight against freeways? Because a group of ubanites wants their 1950's vision of a city? If people wanted to live in dense urban centers with no freeways, they would've stayed in Detroit.

[313WX]

IThey're trucks from Ohio heading to a warehouse in Mt. Clemens.

Is there something wrong with I-75 to I-696? Or I-275 to I-696?

Furthermore, based on that part of your post alone, are you now admitting the expansion of I-94 would provide absolutely no net-gain to the CITY of Detroit, contradictory to what you said earlier

Lastly, as far as I'm concerned with Poletown, GM built their plant there knowing about the type of infrastructure on I-94 and they haven't complained about it over the last 20 years.

[Hermod]

Is there something wrong with I-75 to I-696? Or I-275 to I-696?

Furthermore, based on that part of your post alone, are you now admitting the expansion of I-94 would provide absolutely no net-gain to the CITY of Detroit, contradictory to what you said earlier

As Nerd has pointed out many times in here, both I-94 and I-75 could have bypassed Detroit.

Detroit wanted to dip into the government interstate honeypot to pay for their own urban expressway dreams that they accepted that the through interstate traffic would be moving through the city. The traffic has grown to the point that the highway folks think there is a need for an upgrade.

Detroit can't take back its bargain with the [[from your point of view) devil.

[Shollin]

Every major city in the United States has freeways. There's even freeways in Honolulu. I just have to laugh at the bargain with the devil. I see more abandoned public transit than abandoned freeways. Not everyone wants to live in urban centers. In Fact, more people want to live in the suburbs.

[313WX]

As Nerd has pointed out many times in here, both I-94 and I-75 could have bypassed Detroit.

Detroit wanted to dip into the government interstate honeypot to pay for their own urban expressway dreams that they accepted that the through interstate traffic would be moving through the city. The traffic has grown to the point that the highway folks think there is a need for an upgrade.

Detroit can't take back its bargain with the [[from your point of view) devil.

For the record, I didn't suggest taking back anything. What's done is done.

I am just against exasterbating possible/past mistakes, which in this case will be done through a wasteful expansion.

[Wesley Mouch]

Is there something wrong with I-75 to I-696? Or I-275 to I-696?
...

Yes -- what's wrong with that is that it diverts economic activity away from areas of our regional economy where jobs are really needed. Transportation on rivers, rail, roads [[and even the internet) drive economic activity. We can decide where we want that activity. I'm tired of seeing MDOT invest in suburban roads at the expense of Detroit proper. We all deserve good roads. We all deserve well-designed roads that are appropriately integrated into our communities.

[[I said this long ago -- but the best solution is to expand the route all the way from the Canadian bridges to 94/75 -- and abandon the Lodge, Fisher, and Chrysler in the core in favor of boulevard stubs. Let this newly expanded freeway carry all the traffic -- and build commercial and park overpasses. If you're gonna dream -- dream big.)

[MSUguy]

So? Believe it or not, I would rather get home from work in a reasonable time to be with my family. How would opening 6 mile help my situation when I was in Harper Woods since it didn't go to that side of town.

Do you think that cutting your commute is worth further dividing Midtown and New Center? I don't think we should make our neighborhood worse so someone saves five minutes. There is a reason why cities have worked to lessen the impact of freeways by capping them or removing them altogether

[Shollin]

Do you think that cutting your commute is worth further dividing Midtown and New Center? I don't think we should make our neighborhood worse so someone saves five minutes. There is a reason why cities have worked to lessen the impact of freeways by capping them or removing them altogether

Yes. 94 cut right through Harper Woods and it's main street was literally the service drive of 94. It didn't make the neighborhood worse. What did was the crime that drove people away. I guess next you'll tell me it was 94 that caused the crime increase.

[GUSHI]

Well being close to freeways is a quicker getaway for crooks.lol

[Detroitnerd]

Wesley: If it's economic development you're looking for, freeway expansion isn't a really good job engine. But transit is. I don't have the job multipliers handy right now, but expansion jobs are temporary and unskilled. Transit, esp. light rail transit, produces more and better jobs.

Anyway, if it's economic development for Detroit you're interested in, creating a cavern between Midtown and New Center is counterproductive, as is taking hundreds of acres of land OFF the tax rolls forever to devote it to two-lane service drives. It may not be the good deal for Detroit you seem to think it is.

[Hermod]

Transit, esp. light rail transit, produces more and better jobs.

Rail sure does provide those high paid jobs.

Attachment 14224

[Detroitnerd]

Rail sure does provide those high paid jobs.

Attachment 14224

Ah, Hermod.