I-94 Expansion Project [[Roadway to Detroit's Future)

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

The area along 94 around Woodward and the lodge was dense, but you can't tell me the area east of Gratiot heading to Harper Woods was dense. Most of those neighborhoods were developed post WWII along the same time 94 was built.

The 1950 density map shows 10,000 to 20,000 people per square mile. That ain't exactly North Dakota.

Shollin · June-22-12, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

The 1950 density map shows 10,000 to 20,000 people per square mile. That ain't exactly North Dakota.

Considering the land aquisition for 94 was in 45 and Detroit's population gain through the 40's was mostly in the outer edges, that would indicate the freeway and the neighborhoods were developed at the same time.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Considering the land aquisition for 94 was in 45 and Detroit's population gain through the 40's was mostly in the outer edges, that would indicate the freeway and the neighborhoods were developed at the same time.

I've seen maps showing the expected future development of the urban fringe going as far back as the 1920s. The fact is that they plowed it right through the densest area. You admit that but ...

... as for this east side argument, I really don't know why you are trying to support a hypothetical argument when the facts show the area to already be populated. Seeing a population map from 1950 seems to convince me. I imagine it would convince most people. Not you, apparently.

**iheartthed** · June-22-12, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

The area along 94 around Woodward and the lodge was dense, but you can't tell me the area east of Gratiot heading to Harper Woods was dense. Most of those neighborhoods were developed post WWII along the same time 94 was built.

That's true, but it's false to say that Detroit's freeways were built on the outskirts of town. That isn't what happened at all -- they were built straight through the densest areas of the city.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 02:40 PM

Shollin is just being contrary, nibbling around the edges of the argument, but he seems to acknowledge it. Conventional wisdom is stubborn, and it's hard to let go of it after a lifetime of programming. Maybe we should give him a break.

Shollin · June-22-12, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I've seen maps showing the expected future development of the urban fringe going as far back as the 1920s. The fact is that they plowed it right through the densest area. You admit that but ...

... as for this east side argument, I really don't know why you are trying to support a hypothetical argument when the facts show the area to already be populated. Seeing a population map from 1950 seems to convince me. I imagine it would convince most people. Not you, apparently.

It would convince me if the land was aquired post 1950 but it wasn't. Also that area of 94 isn't considered "urban" by the standards used on this forum. It's density is comprised of mostly single family bungalows and doesn't have the urban walkability this forum seems to crave.

Shollin · June-22-12, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Shollin is just being contrary, nibbling around the edges of the argument, but he seems to acknowledge it. Conventional wisdom is stubborn, and it's hard to let go of it after a lifetime of programming. Maybe we should give him a break.

Shollin enjoys the irony being displayed here about freeways and automobiles when without them, Detroit would've never been the city it was.

**iheartthed** · June-22-12, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Shollin enjoys the irony being displayed here about freeways and automobiles when without them, Detroit would've never been the city it was.

How so? Detroit was a 2 million person city without freeways. It wasn't until it got freeways that it went into a death spiral...

Detroit got addicted to its own product.

**TKshreve** · June-22-12, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit got addicted to its own product.

Stay on topic........ we're not talking about crack. There's other threads for that.

**nain rouge** · June-22-12, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Shollin enjoys the irony being displayed here about freeways and automobiles when without them, Detroit would've never been the city it was.

Automobiles also made Detroit the city it is today. The automobile industry hit the city like a serious cocaine addiction: we felt great at first, on top of the world, and more productive than ever before. Everything was booming.

Then, of course, the high wore off, leaving us overstretched, tattered, and burned out. And predictably, there's those people who are still convinced that if we spend just a few tens of millions of dollars more, we'll get that first high again. Well, guess what: it ain't happening, ever. The factories aren't coming back to this country, and the younger generation overwhelmingly prefers foreign cars. We need to leverage what we still have to move in new directions before it's too late.

Edit: It's funny that another poster used a cocaine analogy at the same time I was writing my post.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Shollin enjoys the irony being displayed here about freeways and automobiles when without them, Detroit would've never been the city it was.

Aw, forget it. Let him have it.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 02:59 PM

I'm particularly concerned about the removal of the bridges connecting the New Center and the mid-city area. Fourth Street would lose quick access by foot, bike and car to the university area. CCS would lose a lot of links to its new Taubman campus. Wayne State would lose a lot of access to Tech Town. I imagine these are some pretty significant stakeholders who could be persuaded to oppose the project. I don't really see any need for it, except in the fevered imagination of MDOT ...

Shollin · June-22-12, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

How so? Detroit was a 2 million person city without freeways. It wasn't until it got freeways that it went into a death spiral...

Detroit got addicted to its own product.

Except all the freeways were in place by 1950 at it's peak population. You really think Detroit would've swelled to 2 million without the auto industry?

It wasn't freeways that caused Detroit's death spiral. Chicago has a ton of freeways that run next to the loop and it didn't decline as much as Detroit did. Look at Philadelphia. They kept their freeways out of the center of the city and it still declined.

**mwilbert** · June-22-12, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Except all the freeways were in place by 1950 at it's peak population.

No, they were not. The Chrysler and Jeffries weren't started. The Lodge and the Ford weren't completed until the mid-50s.

**iheartthed** · June-22-12, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Except all the freeways were in place by 1950 at it's peak population.

They weren't. The only freeway in Detroit that was completed prior to 1950 was the Davison.

You really think Detroit would've swelled to 2 million without the auto industry?

I haven't said anything about the auto industry. I'm saying that Detroit existed at a 2 million person city before freeways.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 03:56 PM

Detroit's urban freeway system was completed around 1975.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-12, 04:14 PM

Further reading

Recent article in Grist: http://grist.org/cities/goodbye-ways...rban-freeways/

Short summary with a link to a longer, more detailed study of the issue of freeway removal: http://www.itdp.org/library/publicat...rban-highways/

Shollin · June-22-12, 04:51 PM

Here's a perfect solution. You wouldn't even know 94 existed.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....-offers-m.html

**Gistok** · June-22-12, 05:04 PM

I-94 didn't make it to 8 Mile until the early 1960s. So it was still a work in progress on the east side up until at least the late 1950s. Most of the homes in the 48224 zip code were built by 1955. So the area where I-94 went thru was completely built up by the time the freeway was built.

I vaguely remember as a very young child driving with my family down I-94 EB and getting off at 8 Mile/Vernier [[the last exit before the freeway ended)... and you could see the ditch end ahead just where [[in the future) I-94 was starting its' curve into Macomb County. This was circa 1961.

But definitely I-94 plowed thru only built up areas until you got into Macomb County.

**Hermod** · June-22-12, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Considering the land aquisition for 94 was in 45 and Detroit's population gain through the 40's was mostly in the outer edges, that would indicate the freeway and the neighborhoods were developed at the same time.

By 1952, the whole northeast part of the city was fully developed with only a few vacant lots. In 1961, the Ford Freeway still didn't go east of Gratiot. They had to tear down a whole bunch of stuff to run the Ford up to 8 Mile.

**Hermod** · June-22-12, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Except all the freeways were in place by 1950 at it's peak population. You really think Detroit would've swelled to 2 million without the auto industry?

In 1961, I worked for the Detroit Bureau of Expressway Design. The Lodge went out to 8-Mile, the Ford only went as far east as Gratiot. The Chrysler only went north to the Ford. The Davidson was complete. All of the other freeways now in Detroit existed only in the planning stage.

**Gistok** · June-22-12, 08:39 PM

Thanks Hermod... I remember as a kid going to Schwaben Park, a German ethnic park located where I-94 makes its' bend into Macomb County... only a stand of trees east of the Freeway [[and just north of old 8 Mile) survive of that park. It likely survived on to about 1963 or thereabouts when the freeway construction finally went thru.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-22-12, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's true, but it's false to say that Detroit's freeways were built on the outskirts of town. That isn't what happened at all -- they were built straight through the densest areas of the city.

True, but not every freeway in Detroit needed to remove a ton of people to build them. For example, much of the Lodge and all of the Southfield already had ROW. I-94, I-96, not so much. I-96 tried to mitigate the taking of homes by running it through industrial and retail areas. Unfortunately instead of taking population, this killed businesses. Past roughly Lahser I-96 was built without taking hardly any homes because it was planned to run down Schoolcraft. My mom grew up on 16th between the Blvd and Warren. When I-94 was brought through, it devastated her neighborhood, taking every house on her block... but hers.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-22-12, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

All of the other freeways now in Detroit existed only in the planning stage.

I agree. Shollin may be a youngster. As a kid I-96 was my sandbox. That was in the 1970's. The Eisenhower Freeway Plan was not enacted until 1957-58 and was not completed until a couple of years before ISTEA became the transportation act [[1991). Odd parts of the freeway system were around in the early 1950's, but those were sections known as the Willow Run Freeway and the Grand River expressway, all way out in the boonies.

**Don K** · June-22-12, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Except all the freeways were in place by 1950 at it's peak population. You really think Detroit would've swelled to 2 million without the auto industry?

It wasn't freeways that caused Detroit's death spiral. Chicago has a ton of freeways that run next to the loop and it didn't decline as much as Detroit did. Look at Philadelphia. They kept their freeways out of the center of the city and it still declined.

First, let's look at facts regarding Chicago versus Philadelphia. In 2010, Chicago's population was 74% of the 1950 level. Philadelphia? OMG it's 74%. Detroit? 39%.

Next, I have in front of me a Rand McNally atlas from 1952. It shows I-94 [[then known as M-112) ending at roughly Michigan Ave/Ford Road, with the segment from there to the Lodge intersection under construction, and the Lodge to Vernier as proposed. The Lodge is under construction from Jefferson to West Grand, and West Grand to Wyoming is proposed. The Lodge alignment from Wyoming to Eight Mile/Greenfield/Norhtwestern is occupied by James Couzens highway, which I'm guessing was a surface-street precursor to the Lodge [[anyone know for sure?). I-75 wasn't even on the map at that point.

Third, Detroit built a tighter noose of freeways around downtown than any other major city I'm aware of. Taking Campus Martius as the center of downtown, the Lodge, I-75, and I-375 are all less than a mile away. This cut off downtown from, e.g., Midtown, Corktown, and Lafayette Park.

Fourth, ignoring New York, Los Angeles, and Washington [[always special cases), the cities among the top ten in 1950 that did the best job of keeping vibrant downtowns [[Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston) all had [[and have) rail transit from the suburbs into downtown so suburbanites don't have to face a commute in bumper-to-bumper traffic if they don't want to and have a convenient alternative.

Detroit in the 40s and 50s decided [[going along with its industry) to become the prime example of a 100% auto-dependent metro area. It's time to admit that model failed dismally.