Duggan: Underground railway tunnel way of future for Detroit Metro

[Jason]

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move. Using magnets to keep the train in the air comes with a bunch of expensive practical problems and it's the main reason maglevs never really took off. The other limiting factor to maglevs [[and anything that goes really fast) is air resistance, which maglevs use aerodynamics to overcome. The hyperloop tries do dodge these two issues by putting the whole thing in a vacuum tube which is even more expensive and problematic than what maglevs do.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.

Each station would cost about $22 million, for 80 meter [[6 car trains) platforms. Current DPM stations are 25 meters [[2 car trains). Shorter platforms are proportionally cheaper, but shorter trains carry less people.

Each train car would cost about $3.5 million. This price is for larger 16.7 m cars, and we would want shorter [[~12.7 m) cars to fit the turning radius of the current loop. The shorter cars would be cheaper individually but we'd need more of them. 2 car trains running every 4 minutes would require 8 trains per mile. Many recent systems use the shorter cars for the benefit of tighter turning radii, so getting them shouldn't be a problem.

A new operations/maintenance center would be $0.5 million per vehicle.


There are two main options for connecting to the current loop. In one option, the new line would touch, but not go through the loop. A new station would serve both lines, and you'd make a transfer. The other option is for the trains from the new line to go through the current loop. This would either limit the train length on the new line to two cars [[the size of our existing platforms) or our existing platforms would need to be lengthened to accept longer trains. In the loop a train would come every 2 minutes, with every other train going to the airport. The maximum headway of the system is 1.5 minutes so that's fine.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

[masterblaster]

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary because we already have the train tracks between Detroit and DTW and they are under the control of the state. All that needs to be done is build a rail to branch off of the Detroit-Ann Arbor rail into the airport, which is a 4-5 mile distance. [[There is actually an existing rail line that does this, just west of the airport)

Also, you mentioned the possibility of the PeopleMover running on the surface in a roadway median. From what I read, it is against regulations for a surface-running rail line to be fully automatic, because it would not able to stop to prevent an accident if a car crossed its path, for instance when a car is attempting to do a "Michigan Left" turn and ignores flashing lights or whatever.

[JBMcB]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

[iheartthed]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

[JBMcB]

This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

That's fine. Interesting idea. The original question stands, though.

[Bham1982]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

If only it cost so little. Subway station renovations these days often cost many hundreds of millions.

If you built a subway from downtown Detroit to Metro Airport, I doubt you could get it done for less than $10 billion [[and that's assuming some degree of surface running).

[Atticus]

Remember, it is Elon Musk though. If you are skeptical or question any of the logistics associated with Musk’s proposals, you have to turn in your liberal card.

[ABetterDetroit]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

[iheartthed]

Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

[Don K]

Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

This. There's always a few billion sitting around for bigger highways that will do nothing to relieve congestion. I really wish there was some way for those of us in the more densely-populated parts of the Metro to veto wasteful highway projects the way the residents of Macomb and Outer Oakland have an effective veto over transit expansion.

I consider myself a good liberal, and yet I'm skeptical of St. Elon and his various projects, so I guess I'll have to turn in my card at the nearest recycling center. In any event, his proposals for forms of personal rapid transit seem designed to cater to the desire of upper-middle-class whites not to have to rub elbows with the lower sorts [[white as well as minorities), as they would have to do using regular transit, and so hardly seem liberal or progressive to me.

[Meddle]

A quick measure on a map shows the distances from I-94/I-696 interchange to:

DTW, 39 miles
St Clair County Airport, 25 miles [[and a MUCH less chaotic drive)

My feeling is that any big bucks would be better spent on a St. Clair County option. I'm guessing it would be a better drive from Oakland County too, even with any I-696 headaches.

[professorscott]

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

I completely agree. Boring is the best and cheapest way to get the necessary space to operate trains; once you have the space, you can build for any kind of train whatever.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary...

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

[Jason]

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

1985 - Toronto Scarborough RT - 6.4km
1986 - Vancouver Skytrain Expo Line - 28.9km
1987 - Detroit People Mover - 4.7km
1990 - Osaka Nagahori Tsurumi-ryokuchi Line - 15km
1991 - Toei Oedo Line - 40.7km
1998 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line - 29km
2001 - Kobe Kaigan Line - 7.9km
2002 - AirTrain JFK - 13km
2002 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line - 20.1km
2005 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 - 43.7km
2005 - Fukuoka Nanakurma Line - 12km
2006 - Osaka Imazatosuji Line - 11.9km
2008 - Yokohama Green Line - 13km
2008 - Beijing Airport Express - 28.1km
2009 - Guangzhou Metro Line 5 - 31.9km
2013 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 - 24.3km
2013 - Yongin EverLine - 18.1km
2015 - Sendai Tozai Line - 13.9km
2016 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line Extension - 17km
2016 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 Extension - 17.6km
2017 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 Extension - 13.6km
2017 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line Evergreen Extension - 11km
2020 - Kuala Lumpur Klang Valley Line - 36km
In Planning - Tokyo metro 7/Eight Liner Lines - 59.7km
In Planning - Okinawa Island Railway - 69km
In Planning - Dehli Light Metro - 35km

Combined, over 2000 train cars have been built for these lines, most of them within the last 20 years, and by a variety of manufacturers.

[ndavies]

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

[professorscott]

This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

[ndavies]

You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

[Dexlin]

Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

I'm personally rather ambivalent about the expansion of the People Mover, but I think it's ridiclous to think that the cars couldn't be replicated by Bombardier, as if the Detroit People Mover doesn't have specs and plans in their office that could be worked off of. I imagine Bombardier would work with them if they ever wanted to expand the system with the exist rolling stock.

That'd be a helluva lot cheaper than having to re-engineer curves. At, quite frankly, so much of it is hemmed in it's why the curves exist in the first place, because there is literally no space have significantly softer ones.

[iheartthed]

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

Duggan isn't suggesting a hyperloop. He wants Musk to prove that the new tunnel boring technology has significantly cut the costs of tunneling for transit projects.