Duh?: Only way to stop Detroit blight is to ease up on suburban development

[ghettopalmetto]

The arguments about "desirability" would make sense if the "desirability" of certain areas didn't fluctuate over time. We're supposed to believe that inner-ring suburbs were desirable in the 1950s, but for some mysterious reason, not so much anymore. We're supposed to believe that Romeo is "desirable" now, even though that hasn't always been the case. WHY? What factors are at work to alter the "desirability" of some areas over others? Is it simple free-market economics, or has the heavy hand of government tilted the equation?

I find it absurdly hilarious, however, that everyone who has commented on growth boundaries just *knows* that it won't work, without so much a comment on the Ann Arbor greenbelt [[or those in Oregon). I'm pretty sure that Pulte Homes et. al. don't need support of the general proletariat to continue raping the land for excessive construction of speculative vinyl-sided tract homes. We'll just ignore those surplus 10,000 homes per year, and pretend that everything is all the fault of the City of Detroit.

I think it's pretty well-documented that even in the Big Bad City of Detroit, there were "good schools, safe streets, reliable services, and nice housing" in the 1940s and 1950s. So obviously, people left for other reasons, yes?

[BankruptcyGuy]

I find it absurdly hilarious, however, that everyone who has commented on growth boundaries just *knows* that it won't work, without so much a comment on the Ann Arbor greenbelt [[or those in Oregon).

The Ann Arbor greenbelt was a miserable failure, enriching farmers to the benefit of no one, and paying for development that wasn't going to occur anyway. Taking $30MM and dropping over Ann Arbor via helicopter would have been a much, much better way to distribute that money.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't have all the answers to this. And certainly, I've been fine with the idea of picking the most sustainable neighborhoods in the city and re-allocating all resources toward making them successful. Greenbelts have mixed reviews, as per BankruptcyGuy. And I also don't believe that forcing developers to stop expanding won't necessary fix the blight problem in the city.

Howeva...

I do think that it would make sense to have some kind of tri-country partnership or consortium that would set some overarching policies about land use and sprawl.

And even if you are a total free market libertarian, then to be ideologically consistent, you can't support expansion in development while letting them off the hook and having them subsidize the costs of infrastructure and city services.

So many of our problems from roads to water to even police and fire could have been alleviated if we had chosen to build upward instead of outward. If you want to develop at 28 mile and Hayes, have at it....but you need to pick up the costs. Not just the houses, not just the roads, but even your share of increased police, fire, water, sewer, and every other civil service whose expenses will now have to increase.

And not just the up-front capital cost. The on-going operating costs of both the new development and some share of the operating costs of what you are leaving behind, too. Because you're not just paying for the cost of the new roads, but you're also leaving old roads behind on the backs of people who are living there. Assuming that you also need those new roads to connect to the old roads and for those old roads to still be functional, you should still have to pick up some share of that too.

[Hermod]

I don't have all the answers to this. And certainly, I've been fine with the idea of picking the most sustainable neighborhoods in the city and re-allocating all resources toward making them successful. Greenbelts have mixed reviews, as per BankruptcyGuy. And I also don't believe that forcing developers to stop expanding won't necessary fix the blight problem in the city.

Think it through. You are a township board in Green Spaces Twp. Farmer Brown had 40 acres that he wants to sell to Schmidlap Developers who want zoning for 80 half-acre home sites. You aren't getting anything from Farmer Brown in property taxes because he is agricultural. You will get a bundle in taxes from the 80 homes in Shmidlaps Golden Acres subdivision. You don;'t worry about schools because the Whatchamalit School District taxes and builds those and you don't worry about roads because your county and the state take care of that. Go Schmidlap and build those homes because we can use us some more taxes.

[shovelhead]

Think it through. You are a township board in Green Spaces Twp. Farmer Brown had 40 acres that he wants to sell to Schmidlap Developers who want zoning for 80 half-acre home sites. You aren't getting anything from Farmer Brown in property taxes because he is agricultural. You will get a bundle in taxes from the 80 homes in Shmidlaps Golden Acres subdivision. You don;'t worry about schools because the Whatchamalit School District taxes and builds those and you don't worry about roads because your county and the state take care of that. Go Schmidlap and build those homes because we can use us some more taxes.

And to add on that scenario, it pays a municipality to have real estate ownership turnover. Because each time a property sells, it is reassessed at the time of sale on the price as a basis for future taxation.

Conspiracy theory here, at least with one suburban municipality. That is why they are non responsive to residents concerns and complaionts but fall all over themselves when a developer expresses any interest in coming to town.

[nain rouge]

The invention of air conditioning worked wonders.

Yes! I've heard people from Phoenix tell others that if you find the daytime heat unbearable in the summer, you can just go from one air-conditioned building to the next until nightfall. Once the sun sets, it hits the 80s-90 range, perfect for a swim or a walk before bed. It's extreme, but you have some light at the end of the tunnel.

In Detroit, it's cold and day and night in the winter, and you can't ignore snow. You have to shovel it and you have to drive in it. Find me a person that prefers 25 to 95 and I'll show you a damn liar.

[FbO Vorcha]

Yes! I've heard people from Phoenix tell others that if you find the daytime heat unbearable in the summer, you can just go from one air-conditioned building to the next until nightfall. Once the sun sets, it hits the 80s-90 range, perfect for a swim or a walk before bed. It's extreme, but you have some light at the end of the tunnel.

In Detroit, it's cold and day and night in the winter, and you can't ignore snow. You have to shovel it and you have to drive in it. Find me a person that prefers 25 to 95 and I'll show you a damn liar.

I can live with 25 much, much easier than I can live with 95, but then again I was brought up to believe that AC is a luxury and heat is a necessity.

Take away the government subsidized water system [[dams and such) and you have a desert with a bunch of dried out old bones and nothing but dirt and scrub as far as the eye can see. You also have no hydroelectric to provide the electricity to power those air conditioners.

The only really cold period in Detroit is January and February, before and after that temperatures pretty much stay above freezing. If you find the nighttime cold unbearable in the winter, you can just go from one heated building to the next until sunrise. You can probably even spend a large chunk of that time sleeping [[it being night and all), cool nights are a great time to sleep.

Also, people moved to Phoenix to get away from the pollens and such that were causing breathing problems, then they just brought all the green with them because they missed having grass and trees and flowers - bring the pollen back along with the additional problem of depleting the aquifer to support their mid-west lifestyle out in the desert.

[iheartthed]

The Ann Arbor greenbelt was a miserable failure, enriching farmers to the benefit of no one, and paying for development that wasn't going to occur anyway. Taking $30MM and dropping over Ann Arbor via helicopter would have been a much, much better way to distribute that money.

Huh? Ann Arbor has had experienced quite a bit of infill development since the greenbelt.

[Danny]

Suburban development will stop anytime soon. As soon young professionals finish their business and have their first child, they will out of the city and out to greener pastures and into a bigger McMansion.

Log on to Google Maps and see what happen to Macomb Township.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Huh? Ann Arbor has had experienced quite a bit of infill development since the greenbelt.

It had absolutely positively nothing to do with the greenbelt, which, by the way, wasn't even a "greenbelt" but more like a "greenbeltbuckle" because, of course, there wasn't enough money to buy development rights in a huge belt around the city.

There is exactly zero evidence that new apartments in the City in any way replaced apartments in the townships surrounding Ann Arbor. And after the housing market recovered, single-family homes are still being built in and around the restricted belt buckle.

[nain rouge]

Also, I'd like to say that if you want to see a prime example of Detroit's former urban growth patterns, look at Midtown. Originally, it was farmland. Then it was a tony "suburb" for the rich, somewhat like Brush Park and Boston Edison. Finally, entire blocks were turned over to large, sprawling apartment buildings and hotels, quite a few of which you can still see today [[in various states of repair). That was a fairly typical model seen in many urban cities at the time, and you can immediately see that the apartments in Midtown were clearly intended for the middle class and above.

[Bham1982]

Also, I'd like to say that if you want to see a prime example of Detroit's former urban growth patterns, look at Midtown.

Midtown would be the worst possible example one could come up with for "typical" Detroit built form, as it's the biggest outlier anywhere in Detroit proper.

And, even then, Midtown was never anything like the older cities of the East, and was already a near-slum soon after development. It was desirable in the crazy 1920's boom and that's it. By the Great Depression it had entered a long decline.

[nain rouge]

Travel more, Bham. You'll see that in other regions, just because a bunch of suburban growth followed the initial urban phase of growth, it didn't mean the urban area had to become a forsaken zone. In fact, many regions that had urban cores historically still benefit heavily from attractive urban neighborhoods.

[Detroitnerd]

Hahaha. I'm enjoying this thread a lot. Nice job making your points, Bham.

[Bham1982]

Travel more, Bham. You'll see that in other regions, just because a bunch of suburban growth followed the initial urban phase of growth, it didn't mean the urban area had to become a forsaken zone. In fact, many regions that had urban cores historically still benefit heavily from attractive urban neighborhoods.

Thanks for the travel lesson, Rick Steves, but you completely missed the point.

I never claimed "suburban growth means the urban area becomes a forsaken zone". That isn't even [[in terms of causation) what happened in Detroit.

[nain rouge]

Here's a list of cities by population density in 1950: http://www.census.gov/population/www...0027/tab18.txt.

I looked through the list real quick, and Detroit was in the top 20 in terms of density. In fact, it looks like it was #15, although I may have missed a city or two [[and many of the cities were NYC sprawl in New Jersey). The average density for the top ten cities by population was 14,000 people per square mile. Detroit was at 13,000.

[nain rouge]

I still ask why Columbus sucks so much. I mean, if you like shopping malls and Max & Erma's and terrible suburban schlock housing within the city limits, I suppose it's pretty terrific. There's just no "there" there.

I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about Columbus, but I'd hardly fault the city for annexing its suburbs. The majority of the nice areas in metros like Detroit and Cleveland are no better. And as we see with Indy, annexation really is the only way for the typical Midwest city to bring investment back to the core.

Short North and German Village in Columbus are urban treasures. It's not all schlock.

[DetroitPlanner]

Short North and German Village in Columbus are urban treasures. It's not all schlock.

German Village has a Max and Erma's! I ate there once and would hardly classify that as not being 'urban hipster'. The same folks you see hanging in Corktown eat there. Columbus does not suck. It is fairly typical for a large midwest metro. It has COSI, nice parks, a world class zoo, is a State Capitol and home to a massive University.