Michigan cuts 243 road projects.

**Hermod** · January-28-10, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Nothing! It's great! The system is working! Just look at the surpluses we're running!

The fact that "need" and "wants" exceed resources is not a matter of the system not working. If we "need" more money for roads, highways, and bridges, raise the per gallon fuel tax on the drivers that use roads, highways, and bridges. The system is there, the overall users of the system pay the overall cost of the system. The more you use the roads, the more you pay in fuel taxes.

The highway system is one of the few gummint things paid for by what amounts to "user fees".

**Detroitnerd** · January-28-10, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The fact that "need" and "wants" exceed resources is not a matter of the system not working. If we "need" more money for roads, highways, and bridges, raise the per gallon fuel tax on the drivers that use roads, highways, and bridges. The system is there, the overall users of the system pay the overall cost of the system. The more you use the roads, the more you pay in fuel taxes.

The highway system is one of the few gummint things paid for by what amounts to "user fees".

Or you can call them "taxes" -- which is what they are, right? And then you can "raise" the "taxes" to pay for the roads. The alternative is to let some roads become pockmarked and hard to drive, which, I suppose, doesn't mean the system doesn't work, it just produces roads of poor quality.

But, in fairness, there's another thing going on here as well. Not only is the tax not going up, but people are driving much less, and driving smaller cars, which means buying fewer gallons of gasoline. So it's sort of a double-whammy.

**Todd_Scott** · February-01-10, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The system is there, the overall users of the system pay the overall cost of the system. The more you use the roads, the more you pay in fuel taxes.

The highway system is one of the few gummint things paid for by what amounts to "user fees".

Road users do not pay the overall cost of the system. According to one recent study, user fees [[primarily fuel taxes and licensing) paid just 51% of the cost of roads in 2007.
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transpor...hways/funding/

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-10, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Todd_Scott

Road users do not pay the overall cost of the system. According to one recent study, user fees [[primarily fuel taxes and licensing) paid just 51% of the cost of roads in 2007.
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transpor...hways/funding/

Oh, man. Another perfectly good libertarian fantasy ruined by the facts.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-01-10, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Todd_Scott

Road users do not pay the overall cost of the system. According to one recent study, user fees [[primarily fuel taxes and licensing) paid just 51% of the cost of roads in 2007.
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transpor...hways/funding/

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

If you notice the decreases in user fees are correlated to poor economic times.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-10, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

If you notice the decreases in user fees are correlated to poor economic times.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

Oh, jeez. So when I take out a loan to pay for my lavish lifestyle, I'm not going into debt, I'm just accessing next year's pay faster?

**Hermod** · February-01-10, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Oh, jeez. So when I take out a loan to pay for my lavish lifestyle, I'm not going into debt, I'm just accessing next year's pay faster?

No, but when you want to buy a house, you don't save for thirty years, then pay cash, you make a down payment and take out a mortgage now.

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-10, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

No, but when you want to buy a house, you don't save for thirty years, then pay cash, you make a down payment and take out a mortgage now.

And that's not debt?

**Bobl** · February-01-10, 02:46 PM

No money for roads? Could have fooled me. We are building some fine ones in Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon, Haiti.

**Hermod** · February-01-10, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

And that's not debt?

Yes, but responsible debt. It may be the right thing to do to issue revenue bonds or general obligation bonds to get the project done now.

**Todd_Scott** · February-01-10, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

The point was Hermod's statement about roads paying for themselves was wrong. There is a great deal of similarity among states since all receive federal transportation funding for highways, which is not all user fees. Michigan may not be 51% user fee, but it certainly isn't 100%.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

Perhaps it's most cases, but it's not all cases. One Oakland County sprawl town is using a TIF to pay off road construction bonds -- not a user fees.