Ideas to Make over Cobo Center

[d.mcc]

Don't forget, Stosh, that soil isn't going to be the only object placed on the roof. Are there HVAC units that need to be supported? Is the roof going to accommodate people? Is there any additional "structure" that would be placed on the roof [[I've seen green roofs with manmade "hills" on them.)?

I never said it couldn't be done.

GP is right, a 2-6" substrate level is bare minimum. Growing medium is another factor. Low and hardy is one way to go, but one of the benefits of a green roof, is creating a sense of place for the person interacting with it. Most buildings that have roof gardens, green roofs, and other variations usually allow access to the roof for a gathering space. Chicago has some fine examples.

[Detroitnerd]

Just more of today's faddish glitter to adorn a decaying 1970s architectural turd.

Monkey bars, anyone?

[d.mcc]

Just more of today's faddish glitter to adorn a decaying 1970s architectural turd.

Monkey bars, anyone?

Are you suggesting green roofs are a fad?

[Detroitnerd]

Are you suggesting green roofs are a fad?

It'll take a while to see. I see lots of neat stuff that looks pretty forward thinking, but I'm not sure all applications make sense. A lot of the time it's a fig leaf [[Ford is a huge polluter looking to score a PR win) or a gimmick [[the "green roof" might help build buzz for a Cobo deal). Or, I grant you, it could be my hyperactive cyncism hard at work.

[d.mcc]

It'll take a while to see. I see lots of neat stuff that looks pretty forward thinking, but I'm not sure all applications make sense. A lot of the time it's a fig leaf [[Ford is a huge polluter looking to score a PR win) or a gimmick [[the "green roof" might help build buzz for a Cobo deal). Or, I grant you, it could be my hyperactive cyncism hard at work.

Because I am pretty sure green roofs have been around as long as man has been constructing shelters for himself. I don't know if Terra Amata had any "green" or "living roofs" persay, but I am fairly certain that were in use at Scara Brae.

[Detroitnerd]

Because I am pretty sure green roofs have been around as long as man has been constructing shelters for himself. I don't know if Terra Amata had any "green" or "living roofs" persay, but I am fairly certain that were in use at Scara Brae.

That's true. But you must admit that, these days, there's a novelty factor to LEED-approved design and green roofs. Hell, work around urban planning issues long enough, and you see how faddish and fleeting all that "novelty" can be.

A short history of an American thoroughfare:

1950s: Take out the streetcar for traffic.

1960s: Widen the thoroughfare for smoother traffic.

1970s: Build out the sidewalk in hopes of attracting more shoppers.

1980s: Add a streetscape to fill the empty shopping sidewalk.

1990s: Take out the streetscape because it looks dated.

2000s: Add a median for "green space."

When I think of all the money that's spent on this "great new idea" over the last 60 years, I wonder if we shouldn't have just kept the streetcars instead of spending $50 million here and $100 million there on the latest "sure thing."

Then again, you know cynical ol' me.

[Stosh]

That's true. But you must admit that, these days, there's a novelty factor to LEED-approved design and green roofs. Hell, work around urban planning issues long enough, and you see how faddish and fleeting all that "novelty" can be.

A short history of an American thoroughfare:

1950s: Take out the streetcar for traffic.

1960s: Widen the thoroughfare for smoother traffic.

1970s: Build out the sidewalk in hopes of attracting more shoppers.

1980s: Add a streetscape to fill the empty shopping sidewalk.

1990s: Take out the streetscape because it looks dated.

2000s: Add a median for "green space."

When I think of all the money that's spent on this "great new idea" over the last 60 years, I wonder if we shouldn't have just kept the streetcars instead of spending $50 million here and $100 million there on the latest "sure thing."

Then again, you know cynical ol' me.

That's true. But then again not a single "great new idea" listed here ever saved a penny in energy costs. This will, at least for cooling. And the insulation on the bottom will boost efficiency as well, overall.

[Gistok]

Just more of today's faddish glitter to adorn a decaying 1970s architectural turd.

Monkey bars, anyone?

Although Cobo Arena and riverfront side are 1960... the rest is 1989.... but you do make a point. Back in the late 80's the TETRIS look was cool... not all modernism withstands the test of time well....

One day the Frank Gehry "crushed trashcan" look may get a different response... such as "what were they thinking when they built that?"

... and then there's the Scottish Parliament Building... 10 times over budget and 3 years late...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ed...2006-04-29.jpg

Not quite sure where the Scottish Parliament Building ends and the rest of Edinburgh begins...

But one equation about cutting edge buildings is often the case....

INNOVATION + COST OVERRUNS = MAINTENANCE NIGHTMARE

[d.mcc]

Not quite sure where the Scottish Parliament Building ends and the rest of Edinburgh begins... [[

Not always a bad thing...

[Stosh]

GP is right, a 2-6" substrate level is bare minimum. Growing medium is another factor. Low and hardy is one way to go, but one of the benefits of a green roof, is creating a sense of place for the person interacting with it. Most buildings that have roof gardens, green roofs, and other variations usually allow access to the roof for a gathering space. Chicago has some fine examples.

There is access to the roof now, I don't see why they would limit it afterward. A garden area would be nice. Grass and native plantings.

The picture below shows the substrate levels. Subtract the structural support, which is already present, and the layers aren't that massive.

[d.mcc]

The picture below shows the substrate levels. Subtract the structural support, which is already present, and the layers aren't that massive.

You cannot just place an intricate green roofing system on an unreinforced structure. The added weight drastically changes the Dead Loads, and puts a further strain on Live Load capability.

[Stosh]

You cannot just place an intricate green roofing system on an unreinforced structure. The added weight drastically changes the Dead Loads, and puts a further strain on Live Load capability.

It's reinforced due to the parking above already allotted for. Subtract cars, add system.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's reinforced due to the parking above already allotted for. Subtract cars, add system.

As I [[thought I) stated, design live loads for parking cars is 50 psf. You allow people up there, and you have to bump it up to 100 psf [[above any dead load for green roof materials). I don't know how you think you can just magically achieve 50 psf of extra load-supporting capacity, but I'm sure that if you wish it hard enough, it can happen.

But maybe we should try it your way first. I wouldn't want to be called closed-minded. Just let us know at what point the whole damned roof falls in.

[Stosh]

As I [[thought I) stated, design live loads for parking cars is 50 psf. You allow people up there, and you have to bump it up to 100 psf [[above any dead load for green roof materials). I don't know how you think you can just magically achieve 50 psf of extra load-supporting capacity, but I'm sure that if you wish it hard enough, it can happen.

But maybe we should try it your way first. I wouldn't want to be called closed-minded. Just let us know at what point the whole damned roof falls in.

That would solve the Cobo problem, wouldn't it?

And I don't follow your math either. Say a parking lot of cars, each weighing over 2000 pounds each, runs a live [[excuse me) load of 50 psf. How many humans would you pack on that roof to equal a doubling of that load?

[ghettopalmetto]

And I don't follow your math either. Say a parking lot of cars, each weighing over 2000 pounds each, runs a live [[excuse me) load of 50 psf. How many humans would you pack on that roof to equal a doubling of that load?

It's not math. It's the requirements of the building codes.