Can you name something that makes you feel Detroit is on a comeback

[Bham1982]

And you do disregard the real fact that Detroit's CBD-downtown, midtown, and New Center-is seeing development and work on a scale never before seen in our lifetime.

How do you figure this?

During the 1970's-80's, downtown got a 7 tower complex, including a luxury shopping mall, the tallest hotel in the world, and six office towers. Detroit completely rebuilt the two main shopping corridors, and added a new mall and department store in New Center. Oh, and an elevated rail system alongside a street-running trolley.

During the 1980's-90's, downtown got multiple trophy office buildings [[including one by Hines, the gold standard in higher end commercial space) a shopping mall in Greektown, three highrise residentials, multiple new hotels, and two huge riverfront developments along Jefferson.

During the 1990's-00's downtown got two new HQ buildings, three massive casinos, two new stadia, renovated its largest abandoned tower to a luxury hotel, major expansion at Wayne State.

You can have stuff get built and still struggle. A city as big as Detroit will have development, even if the overall narrative is decline. "But stuff is being built" isn't really a reasonable response to whether or not the city is still declining. Stuff is always being built, whether cities are growing or shrinking.

[TTime]

How do you figure this?

During the 1970's-80's, downtown got a 7 tower complex, including a luxury shopping mall, the tallest hotel in the world, and six office towers. Detroit completely rebuilt the two main shopping corridors, and added a new mall and department store in New Center. Oh, and an elevated rail system alongside a street-running trolley.

During the 1980's-90's, downtown got multiple trophy office buildings [[including one by Hines, the gold standard in higher end commercial space) a shopping mall in Greektown, three highrise residentials, multiple new hotels, and two huge riverfront developments along Jefferson.

During the 1990's-00's downtown got two new HQ buildings, three massive casinos, two new stadia, renovated its largest abandoned tower to a luxury hotel, major expansion at Wayne State.

You can have stuff get built and still struggle. A city as big as Detroit will have development, even if the overall narrative is decline. "But stuff is being built" isn't really a reasonable response to whether or not the city is still declining. Stuff is always being built, whether cities are growing or shrinking.

I expect a few Millenials to contest this post because nothing of note has ever happened unless they had something to do with it but I'm glad you posted this. You can't imagine how new Detroiters I encounter constantly tell me how nothing happened in Detroit til they showed up. At that point I ask them if they hung out in the city until recently and the answer is usually,"no why would I there was no reason." .... I laugh and walk away.

[mwilbert]

Things that I do not think you need to have to say Detroit is on an upswing:

1) Overall population growth
2) Families with children moving in
3) Decent schools

These would be great, but in my view, the city has been improving steadily over the past 5 years without any of those things, and it could probably go another 15 without any of them, although I suspect that if things continue to improve for that long that population will probably bottom out by then.

Things I think are indicators of an upswing now:

1) Large-scale reuse of previously empty buildings/lots in greater Downtown.
2) Rising quantity of higher-end retail and dining.
3) More jobs downtown.
4) Declining subsidy levels for construction/renovation.
5) Expansion of areas where new market-rate housing is being created.

Things I think will be the next indications of a continued upswing:

1) Major construction with conventional financing [[but there will probably be tax abatements for a long time).
2) Rising average incomes in the city.
3) Rising city tax collections.
4) Substantially increased housing production in greater Downtown.

Time for an anecdote!

A friend of my brother's, originally from Detroit, now splits his time between NYC and Toronto. He hadn't been back to Detroit for 5-10 years, but was in town a few weeks ago. My brother took him on a bit of a tour, and his friend was quite surprised at the improvements. Not because Detroit now rivals New York or Toronto, but because it is so much ahead of where it was last time he was in town.

Note that none of this is intended to say that what is happening now is good enough. It isn't, and there is vast evidence that Detroit isn't doing well by a large proportion of its residents. There are significant problems that may not be overcome. But it is better than it was, and hopefully it will continue to improve.

[dtowncitylover]

How do you figure this?

During the 1970's-80's, downtown got a 7 tower complex, including a luxury shopping mall, the tallest hotel in the world, and six office towers. Detroit completely rebuilt the two main shopping corridors, and added a new mall and department store in New Center. Oh, and an elevated rail system alongside a street-running trolley.

During the 1980's-90's, downtown got multiple trophy office buildings [[including one by Hines, the gold standard in higher end commercial space) a shopping mall in Greektown, three highrise residentials, multiple new hotels, and two huge riverfront developments along Jefferson.

During the 1990's-00's downtown got two new HQ buildings, three massive casinos, two new stadia, renovated its largest abandoned tower to a luxury hotel, major expansion at Wayne State.

You can have stuff get built and still struggle. A city as big as Detroit will have development, even if the overall narrative is decline. "But stuff is being built" isn't really a reasonable response to whether or not the city is still declining. Stuff is always being built, whether cities are growing or shrinking.

And here is my post destroying your rebuttal.

The luxury shopping mall failed within 10 years of opening because the downturn was already happening. And we all know the Rennaissance Center did nothing to improve the older urban core of downtown, it was a failure. But now we have Moosejaw, John Varvatos, Kit + Ace, Nike all opening up during an upswing in development and growth in downtown Detroit. Plus new shopping districts like Midtown with Shinola being the anchor.

Trapper's Alley was hardly a shopping mall comparable to Northland, Oakland, or Somerset. It was a gimmick.

The People Mover failed and the Washington Boulevard you keep mentioning probably to piss me off was not in any sense of the imagination an attempt to true mass transit, it was a heritage trolley line for tourists, so stop f---ing mentioning it.

No I don't think you keep building stuff if you are struggling. Remember John Madden lost all his money building 150 W. Jefferson. One Detroit Center was supposed to be two towers. A billionaire doesn't build a new wing on his mansion while becoming a pauper. And despite having these new buildings, downtown was still a dead zone, even during the day. You cannot say the same about today.

I would say the renovation of the Book Cadillac was the catalyst of what has happened today.

We all know stadiums and casinos don't do much for a city looking to revamp things, and they really didn't. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm taking about the fact that is seems that Metro Detroit finally gets that if it wants to survive, a healthy urban core with a vibrant business, social, culture, and transportation life is key. And that is what is beginning to happen.

[TTime]

And here is my post destroying your rebuttal.

The luxury shopping mall failed within 10 years of opening because the downturn was already happening. And we all know the Rennaissance Center did nothing to improve the older urban core of downtown, it was a failure. But now we have Moosejaw, John Varvatos, Kit + Ace, Nike all opening up during an upswing in development and growth in downtown Detroit. Plus new shopping districts like Midtown with Shinola being the anchor.

Trapper's Alley was hardly a shopping mall comparable to Northland, Oakland, or Somerset. It was a gimmick.

The People Mover failed and the Washington Boulevard you keep mentioning probably to piss me off was not in any sense of the imagination an attempt to true mass transit, it was a heritage trolley line for tourists, so stop f---ing mentioning it.

No I don't think you keep building stuff if you are struggling. Remember John Madden lost all his money building 150 W. Jefferson. One Detroit Center was supposed to be two towers. A billionaire doesn't build a new wing on his mansion while becoming a pauper. And despite having these new buildings, downtown was still a dead zone, even during the day. You cannot say the same about today.

I would say the renovation of the Book Cadillac was the catalyst of what has happened today.

We all know stadiums and casinos don't do much for a city looking to revamp things, and they really didn't. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm taking about the fact that is seems that Metro Detroit finally gets that if it wants to survive, a healthy urban core with a vibrant business, social, culture, and transportation life is key. And that is what is beginning to happen.

that was some tame destruction and you don't know what the future holds.

[masterblaster]

How do you figure this?

During the 1970's-80's, downtown got a 7 tower complex, including a luxury shopping mall, the tallest hotel in the world, and six office towers. Detroit completely rebuilt the two main shopping corridors, and added a new mall and department store in New Center. Oh, and an elevated rail system alongside a street-running trolley.

During the 1980's-90's, downtown got multiple trophy office buildings [[including one by Hines, the gold standard in higher end commercial space) a shopping mall in Greektown, three highrise residentials, multiple new hotels, and two huge riverfront developments along Jefferson.

During the 1990's-00's downtown got two new HQ buildings, three massive casinos, two new stadia, renovated its largest abandoned tower to a luxury hotel, major expansion at Wayne State.

You can have stuff get built and still struggle. A city as big as Detroit will have development, even if the overall narrative is decline. "But stuff is being built" isn't really a reasonable response to whether or not the city is still declining. Stuff is always being built, whether cities are growing or shrinking.

There are 2 major differences between the development in downtown that has happened in the last 10 years and the development in the time period of the 1970's to early 2000's.

1. Yes, there was a decent amount of new development from the '70s to '00s [[Ren Cen, Trolley Plaza), BUT DURING THAT SAME PERIOD A LARGE NUMBER OF buildings WENT DARK - Hotel Tuller, Hotel Statler, Lafayette Building, Hudson's Building, Broderick Building, Whitney Building, Metropolitan Building, Wurlitzter Building, the now demolished 21-story building that was next to the Cadillac Tower, the Monroe Block, the Theaters - Michigan, United Artists, National, Madison, Adams, etc, etc. etc. During the past 10 years, however, only the Book Tower has WENT DARK, and that building has now been purchased by Gilbert for a likely residential conversion.

2. Downtown's resurgence in the past 10 years is more focused on bringing new residents downtown, while in the previous years it was just about getting office workers and pro sports fans downtown.