And Yet Again, the Suburbs/State Screw Detroit Over

[Gistok]

Agreed. Maybe that's the plan.

In any event, since we're talking about federal dollars [[just like how cities with the larger population typically gets the largest of the federal grant money), logic would dictate that the transit system with the highest ridership would get its fair share of the funds.

Rather than play the blame gaime people should get involved...

http://www.youtube.com/user/semcog

Looking at some of the statistics about DDOT... check the graphs...

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...10-26-2011.pdf

Does a substandard maintenance record of existing buses deserve to be rewarded by more new buses? Are the SMART buses older because they do better maintenance, and don't require replacing as often?

All good questions...

[Wesley Mouch]

...Looking at some of the statistics about DDOT... check the graphs...

Thank you Gistok. Sobering statistics. I was struck by the last line in the report:

Detroit 1 of only 2 major cities that manages its own bus system

[313WX]

Rather than play the blame gaime people should get involved...

http://www.youtube.com/user/semcog

Looking at some of the statistics about DDOT... check the graphs...

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...10-26-2011.pdf

Does a substandard maintenance record of existing buses deserve to be rewarded by more new buses? Are the SMART buses older because they do better maintenance, and don't require replacing as often?

All good questions...

Ok, so DDOT isn't the most well-managed system.

Does that necessarily mean LESS money will make things better?

If you say yes, then let's look at the ENTIRE city of Detroit today.

[antongast]

Does a substandard maintenance record of existing buses deserve to be rewarded by more new buses? Are the SMART buses older because they do better maintenance, and don't require replacing as often?

Is this a morality play, or are we trying to get bus service that works? DDOT's issues with vehicle maintenance are well known, but if your solution is to cut their funding until they figure out how to address them, that's just going to hurt the riders when there aren't enough working buses available to service the routes. Who exactly do you think is "undeserving" here? [[It's worth noting, by the way, that the purpose of the presentation you linked was to make the case for outsourcing management to a consultant. Outsourcing happened, and over a year later it doesn't appear to have solved the problem).

Anyway, IIRC buses are supposed to be on a replacement cycle of something like 12 years or a certain number of miles. I would think DDOT's buses are newer on average because they happen to have replaced a bunch of buses last year when they ran up against the replacement cycle. Does DDOT consistently have newer buses than SMART, or is this just a snapshot in time?

[Wesley Mouch]

Is this a morality play, or are we trying to get bus service that works? DDOT's issues with vehicle maintenance are well known, but if your solution is to cut their funding until they figure out how to address them, that's just going to hurt the riders when there aren't enough working buses available to service the routes. Who exactly do you think is "undeserving" here? [[It's worth noting, by the way, that the purpose of the presentation you linked was to make the case for outsourcing management to a consultant. Outsourcing happened, and over a year later it doesn't appear to have solved the problem).

Anyway, IIRC buses are supposed to be on a replacement cycle of something like 12 years or a certain number of miles. I would think DDOT's buses are newer on average because they happen to have replaced a bunch of buses last year when they ran up against the replacement cycle. Does DDOT consistently have newer buses than SMART, or is this just a snapshot in time?

There's nearly zero evidence of what will fix the problem. Since it hasn't been fixed. Doesn't mean outsourcing was a bad idea. Doesn't mean it was the magic bullet.

This isn't a morality play. We'd like good bus service. there's zero evidence that this fixes the problem, either.

We should be listening to the message here. Did you read that report Gistok posted? This patient doesn't need money, they need a visit to the ER or to be put down mercifully and replaced.

I agree that what's really needed is bus service. Sounds like the best thing to do here is to kill DDOT and let SMART run it all. If you are interested in better bus service, its an obvious solution. If you really want a reborn city-centric bus department, get in line behind a thousand other dysfunctional city departments. What do you want?

[antongast]

There's nearly zero evidence of what will fix the problem. Since it hasn't been fixed. Doesn't mean outsourcing was a bad idea. Doesn't mean it was the magic bullet.

This isn't a morality play. We'd like good bus service. there's zero evidence that this fixes the problem, either.

We should be listening to the message here. Did you read that report Gistok posted? This patient doesn't need money, they need a visit to the ER or to be put down mercifully and replaced.

I agree that what's really needed is bus service. Sounds like the best thing to do here is to kill DDOT and let SMART run it all. If you are interested in better bus service, its an obvious solution. If you really want a reborn city-centric bus department, get in line behind a thousand other dysfunctional city departments. What do you want?

My point about outsourcing is that different management didn't solve the problem. So you acknowledge that point, and then your suggestion is to...replace the management [[with SMART's management, which has its own issues)? I'd say that's pretty far from an "obvious" solution.

[[and yes, I read the report he posted, that's why I commented on it. Most of what was interesting to me about it was the political spin on the findings, which I find is very often the case with reports of this type. The raw data about vehicle maintenance and the like is readily available in public databases in a more complete and up-to-date form than is found in that report; please feel free to seek it out and add your own spin if you want).

[antongast]

Also, like a bunch of other people on here are saying, yes, for the love of Christ, DDOT needs more money. Yes, it's inefficient in some ways, but I don't get why people think that's incompatible with it needing more money. Regardless of the maintenance issues, it doesn't have enough money right now to provide as much service as people need to get around Detroit. You're not going to squeeze enough out of efficiency gains to change that. Cutting or freezing funding until they get their shit together is just completely dismissive of the real transit needs of people in this city. Everything isn't always about efficiency and the bottom line. Jeezus.

[Wesley Mouch]

Also, like a bunch of other people on here are saying, yes, for the love of Christ, DDOT needs more money. Yes, it's inefficient in some ways, but I don't get why people think that's incompatible with it needing more money. Regardless of the maintenance issues, it doesn't have enough money right now to provide as much service as people need to get around Detroit. You're not going to squeeze enough out of efficiency gains to change that. Cutting or freezing funding until they get their shit together is just completely dismissive of the real transit needs of people in this city. Everything isn't always about efficiency and the bottom line. Jeezus.

"Inefficient in some ways'. Read the report posted by Gistok from the city. "When the City’s bus system is compared to similar bus systems, its maintenance cost per mile is uncompetitive". Their cost per mile is nearly $2.00 vs. 80 cents for other major cities. it was kind to call it uncompetitive. its not about the money from efficiency gains -- although that might just pay for good transit. Its that tossing money at it doesn't work. If it did, then the 2 1/2 times more we pay in Detroit per mile for maintenance might have fixed it.

Actually, everything is about the bottom line and efficiency. That's what delivers good transit. So let's get there.