Why retail CAN work Downtown?

[De'troiter]

Using terms like "Price out the riff-raff" should not be used because it causes the same elitist/segregationist attitudes that destroyed this city years ago and continue to keep the environment socially divided. Terms like these feed into what Black residents of the city proper, feel is a plot to price them out by means of gentrification. Also, those "riff-raff" as they are called probably have more disposable income in the food department than those conveted "yuppies"....just food for thought.

[gthomas]

Wonder why Target haven't consider locating Downtown or the planned Gateway Park retail outlet?

[esp1986]

Wonder why Target haven't consider locating Downtown or the planned Gateway Park retail outlet?

On this note, it is alarming how many grocery stores are setting up at the same time in the Downtown/Midtown areas. All these years, Detroiters have complained about the lack of grocery stores, but grocers were reluctant to set up shop in the city for a variety of reasons, chiefly theft and lack of density [[density being what provides enough business to pay the bills). Now, with three or four setting up shop at once, my worry is that they will all be doomed to fail because the clientele will end up being spread so thinly among them that none of them gets enough business to survive. We have Eve's in Washington Square, Lafayette Foods in Lafayette Park, another poster yesterday said they were looking to set up shop in the CBD and the possibility of Whole Foods coming to Detroit remains. I am sure I heard of another one too. It is great to get a grocery store, the area can probably support one really good one, but two or three or four? I worry that a couple are doomed to fail from lack of demand for that much supply.

[DetroitPlanner]

Wonder why Target haven't consider locating Downtown or the planned Gateway Park retail outlet?

Target did have a Detroit Store not too far from Gateway at Bel-Air. It was the last hold out in the dead strip-mall. It held out well past the closing of Builder's Square, Toys R Us, and Farmer Jack. If I was that company I'd not want to be in the position of being in a big box power center so close to one that failed.

[softailrider]

Wonder why Target haven't consider locating Downtown or the planned Gateway Park retail outlet?

Because they don't feel they can make as large a profit in that location as they can make in others.

[313WX]

Wonder why Target haven't consider locating Downtown or the planned Gateway Park retail outlet?

The same reason Kroger hasn't, their other Detroit locations failed epically.

[erikd]

The same reason Kroger hasn't, their other Detroit locations failed epically.

The national big-box chains have failed in their Detroit experiments because they locate and operate their stores based on criteria that has proven successful in suburban markets, but fails to account for the very different market dynamics found in large cities. This is not unique to Detroit, but rather the norm. Wal-Mart is the largest company on earth, but they are virtually non-existent in large cities. A quick Google search shows that just like Detroit, there are no Wal-Mart stores located in New York City, San Francisco, Washington DC, Miami, Seattle, Boston, San Diego, and many other large American cities. Wal-Mart does have one store in Chicago, one in LA, and two in Philadelphia. A quick look at the store locations for Kroger, Meijer, Target, etc. will show very similar results.

When you consider the fact that the national big-box chains have completely failed to penetrate urban markets across America, it becomes obvious that the problem is not Detroit, but rather the inability of big-box chains to figure out how to make their business model work in a large city. If Detroit was simply a poor market, then we would not be able to support the numerous national retailers such as Rite Aid, Walgreens, and CVS, which all operate many successful locations within the city of Detroit.

The top reasons for the inability of big-box chain stores to succeed in Detroit are:

1. An over-reliance on demographic numbers within a pre-defined radius, which negates a large section of the most desirable areas of Detroit. When a big-box store with hundreds or thousands of locations has statistical evidence that the majority of their single-store sales come from customers who live within a three-mile radius of the store, otherwise desirable Detroit locations near the river don't make the cut, because half of that three mile radius is either in the river, or in a different country. In addition to the radius criterion, the national big-box retailers also desire locations on surface streets with heavy automobile traffic, which are less common in the city core, due to the combination of an older, and more narrow, surface street designs, coupled with a plethora of below-grade freeways specifically designed to funnel auto traffic off of the surface streets.

2. The cost and difficulty of assembling large, contiguous parcels of land in the densest and most desirable areas of the city. A big-box store requires an immense amount of land, on the scale of MGM Grand Detroit, Ford Field, or Comerica Park. If you are familiar with the cost and complexities that were associated with assembling the land for these landmark projects, it is obvious why this amount of effort and money would make it financially impossible to build a big-box store anywhere near downtown.

3. Complete ignorance of the social and economic complexities of the region. When Target puts a store at 8 mile and Van Dyke, and Kroger builds a store on Gratiot, just south of 8 mile, it is obvious that they have no clue how the Detroit retail market works. The population radius and high auto traffic volume along 8 mile may look good to a number cruncher in Minnesota or Ohio, but anybody who actually lives in metro Detroit knows that those store locations were bound to fail. Neither one of these locations are near the middle and upper income neighborhoods in the city, and there is no way that the suburban residents of Warren will ever cross 8 mile to shop at a chain big-box store in the city.

[corktownyuppie]

Using terms like "Price out the riff-raff" should not be used because it causes the same elitist/segregationist attitudes that destroyed this city years ago and continue to keep the environment socially divided. Terms like these feed into what Black residents of the city proper, feel is a plot to price them out by means of gentrification. Also, those "riff-raff" as they are called probably have more disposable income in the food department than those conveted "yuppies"....just food for thought.

First, let me apologize in case I offended you; that was not my intention...and frankly, if the term is taken that way, then you are right...inflammatory language does not help me get my point across.

Second, I'm kind of dumb about what tore this region apart because I'm too young to have remembered anything before the late 80s/early 90s. My parents were more familiar with it, but even they didn't come to Michigan until the late 70s.

...and for what it's worth, during those times of institutionalized racial polarization, my family would've been on the wrong end of redlining, not the ones dishing it out.

But lastly, I want to respond to a comment you make:

because it causes the same elitist/segregationist attitudes that destroyed this city years ago and continue to keep the environment socially divided. Terms like these feed into what Black residents of the city proper, feel is a plot to price them out by means of gentrification.

I want to make the distinction between segregation by race vs. segregation by socioeconomic class. Now, of course, for many...they will interpret the two as one and the same, but I don't.

In no way am I justifying, encouraging, underhandedly implying, "winking at", or being willfully ignorant toward racial segregation. I'm young, but I'm old enough to notice how different racial attitudes are today than 20-25 years ago.

Socioeconomic segregation is not them same as racial segregation. Socioeconomic segregation separates by income, education level, etc. And as I said in my first post, it's a reality that people at different ends of the income scale have different needs and priorities. And the marketplace separates itself to cater to different peoples' needs.

For example, when I was young, our family was poor. We valued money over time. We had plenty of time. No shortage of boredom. But I couldn't scrape to quarters together to play a video game. But now, it's the opposite. I have more money to pay for goods and services, but time is in short[[er) supply. So when I go grocery shopping, I like the fact that Whole Foods has a policy that anytime there are more than 2 people in line, a new cashier's lane magically opens up, and I'm willing to pay for the level of service.

On the flipside, on the rare occasion I go to Wal-Mart, it's great for my pocketbook, but it's a huge headache as far as time is concerned. The place is disorganized, there are long lines everywhere, I can't even find a shopping cart. I've got groups of children that are running around.

Neither is "better" or "worse". They cater to different market segments who have different priorities and needs. Both are successful companies.

We do this at baseball and basketball games. You think I can afford the box suites or floor seats at half court? Um...no. I sit in the bleachers and the nosebleeds. And I don't have the money...I just watch it at home.

If we want Detroit to become a better place, we need to stop chasing away the Whole Foods crowd and welcome them with open arms. Even if we don't always like the attitudes that come with them, we like their commerce, their money, and their jobs.

And I assure you that if Whole Foods opens up in Midtown, their clientele will *hardly* be lily white WASPs.

[Bham1982]

And I assure you that if Whole Foods opens up in Midtown, their clientele will *hardly* be lily white WASPs.

Then who do you think their clientele will be?

I'm genuinely curious, because I've never seen a Whole Foods where privileged whites didn't comprise a plularity of the demographic.

I can guarantee you that Whole Foods, if they ever came to Detroit, would open based on the assumption that they would receive such patronage.

As to your economics vs. race explanation, I don't buy it. Economic segregation isn't healthier or more justified than race segregation. The reason that stores for "riff raff" exist in Detroit is because that demographic lives there. You won't eliminate the stores [[if that's your intenet) unless you kick out that demographic.

IMO, a healthy urban area has retail for both. Extreme economic exclusion isn't good for cities.

[corktownyuppie]

Then who do you think their clientele will be?

I'm genuinely curious, because I've never seen a Whole Foods where privileged whites didn't comprise a plularity of the demographic.

I can guarantee you that Whole Foods, if they ever came to Detroit, would open based on the assumption that they would receive such patronage.

I didn't think before I wrote. I meant to say that the clientele wouldn't be *just* lily white WASPs. If you go to a Whole Foods in NYC, you get a hodgepodge. I mean, the student population of Wayne State alone would be there all the time, and I would say that they include the entire spectrum.

As to your economics vs. race explanation, I don't buy it. Economic segregation isn't healthier or more justified than race segregation. The reason that stores for "riff raff" exist in Detroit is because that demographic lives there. You won't eliminate the stores [[if that's your intenet) unless you kick out that demographic.

IMO, a healthy urban area has retail for both. Extreme economic exclusion isn't good for cities.

I wouldn't say my intent is to kick out anyone. Healthy urban areas do have retail for both. I think it's fair to say that in this part of the city, the upper middle and upper income classes are underserved. Way underserved.

[De'troiter]

Here is a better link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pefix...layer_embedded

[DinNC]

I think Corktownyuppie is dead on with all his statements. I think people on this forum who are giving him hell are too dumb to understand what he's trying to say. No one wants to get rid of anyone. He is simply saying that there is a population of people who want to shop at a higher end grocery chain. I can't afford to do my shopping there, so I shop at Wal-Mart. I put up with the horrible service and sometimes shockingly disgusting customers to save a few bucks. If a Whole-foods opened in my town I wouldn't be pissed and think they are trying to segregate my town. ANY person can shop there. There are no signs that say "whites only" when you walk into wholefoods.

Just on a side note. I personally think a trader joes would be better for this area.

Have a great evening!

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Then who do you think their clientele will be?

I'm genuinely curious, because I've never seen a Whole Foods where privileged whites didn't comprise a plularity of the demographic.

I can guarantee you that Whole Foods, if they ever came to Detroit, would open based on the assumption that they would receive such patronage.

As to your economics vs. race explanation, I don't buy it. Economic segregation isn't healthier or more justified than race segregation. The reason that stores for "riff raff" exist in Detroit is because that demographic lives there. You won't eliminate the stores [[if that's your intenet) unless you kick out that demographic.

IMO, a healthy urban area has retail for both. Extreme economic exclusion isn't good for cities.

Both sides have valid points. However, this is not an argrument on race. Major Retailers [[Target, Whole Foods, etc.) does not look at color when it does it Market Research. They look at the demographics in the area such as

1. Avg. Salary,
2. Most Likely shoppers.
3. Cost of Doing business.

A good case in point is that bookstores [[small or large) does not fare well in the City of Detroit. Why becomes studies show that too manyDetroiters do not read books and therefore cannot support a bookstore

Why should Whole Foods come to Detroit with prices that far exceeds what the normal Detroiter normally pays for food? It does not make good Business sense. They companies are in it for the money.

Detroit's present economy supports on hair salons, party stores, cell phone providers, check cashing joints, Subways, ALDI Grocery stores.

Whole Foods does not fit the marketable bill. It will close in a year.

[corktownyuppie]

Whole Foods does not fit the marketable bill. It will close in a year.

Well first, you might be right. Time will tell...and the damned company hasn't even announced its opening, so this is all kibitzing and speculation.

I agree with everything you say expect the part I quoted above. There is an underserved upper income class that lives in Midtown. There is an upper income class that commutes to Midtown, and while they probably wouldn't shop there if Kroger opened up...they'd gladly dine at the Whole Foods lunch counter.

There is a bar opening up on Michigan Avenue whose drink prices will go from $7-9 a glass. People from downtown are driving 20 minutes away to shop in the suburbs.

Like I say, I could be wrong...and it's not even an officially done deal. But retail is coming to downtown. It's just a matter of time. The population is starting to really hunger for it.

[English]

Whole Foods does not fit the marketable bill. It will close in a year.

Bet it won't. In fact, I'd be willing to put money on it.