Windsor Casino Rejects 2nd Tentative Agreement

[Shai_Hulud]

BTW--casino workers live off the misery of others, so don't expect me to feel sympathetic because someone didn't get their shift. Somebody who does that is not on the same level as, say, a restaurant server as Swiss Chalet. I don't know how someone can work there and sleep well at night. If it wasn't about greed, they wouldn't continue working there. They should just tear the place down instead of giving them huge increases that come from the misery of others.

So the floor workers at the casino are terrible people for making a living, but we have no such animus for Caesars Entertainment or the Provincial government which are feeding at the same trough?

[davewindsor]

So the floor workers at the casino are terrible people for making a living, but we have no such animus for Caesars Entertainment or the Provincial government which are feeding at the same trough?

Yes, they are terrible people for making a living off the misery of others and then wanting to exploit it even more with their outrageous demands. They have a choice to work there or somewhere else--there's tonnes of jobs out there in today's market. Just because the government makes something legal doesn't make it right.

[Bham1982]

Yes, they are terrible people for making a living off the misery of others and then wanting to exploit it even more with their outrageous demands. They have a choice to work there or somewhere else--there's tonnes of jobs out there in today's market. Just because the government makes something legal doesn't make it right.

They have a right to strike and are doing so. Totally irrelevant whether you think their employment is fundamentally immoral [[weird, though).

[davewindsor]

They have a right to strike and are doing so. Totally irrelevant whether you think their employment is fundamentally immoral [[weird, though).

You must work in a casino. Do you sleep well at night?

[Bham1982]

You must work in a casino. Do you sleep well at night?

If I did work at a casino, yes, I would sleep very well at night. Not many casinos go out of business.

Not sure why you keep harping on "moral" objections to legal, heavily regulated business, unless you think all forms of leisure/entertainment are fundamentally immoral, and believe that employees of bars, restaurants, movie theaters, sporting venues, etc. have no right to ask for better wages or benefits.

[davewindsor]

If I did work at a casino, yes, I would sleep very well at night. Not many casinos go out of business.

Not sure why you keep harping on "moral" objections to legal, heavily regulated business, unless you think all forms of leisure/entertainment are fundamentally immoral, and believe that employees of bars, restaurants, movie theaters, sporting venues, etc. have no right to ask for better wages or benefits.

You are not making any sense. You are comparing apples to oranges. What do movie theaters have to do with casino gambling? My moral objection is to gambling, the peope who profit from it, and it's consequences, not free enterprise. I also have a moral objection to stealing. Are you going to suggest that's morally right too?

[Bham1982]

You are not making any sense. You are comparing apples to oranges. What do movie theaters have to do with casino gambling?

They're both highly lucrative sources of govt. regulated leisure entertainment. How are they morally distinct?

My moral objection is to gambling, the peope who profit from it, and it's consequences, not free enterprise. I also have a moral objection to stealing. Are you going to suggest that's morally right too?

Stealing is obviously illegal, and has nothing to do with anything.

[Shai_Hulud]

Yes, they are terrible people for making a living off the misery of others and then wanting to exploit it even more with their outrageous demands. They have a choice to work there or somewhere else--there's tonnes of jobs out there in today's market. Just because the government makes something legal doesn't make it right.

If there's a dispute over wages that means at the very least Caesars and the gaming commission aren't willing to accept less. Likewise, the province could find other revenue and Caesars other business opportunities.

So no one involved is a paragon of generosity or virtue, but it's only the working stiffs you have a problem with.

Now is this a moral objection or simply an attack on big, bad unions?

[davewindsor]

If there's a dispute over wages that means at the very least Caesars and the gaming commission aren't willing to accept less. Likewise, the province could find other revenue and Caesars other business opportunities.

So no one involved is a paragon of generosity or virtue, but it's only the working stiffs you have a problem with.

Now is this a moral objection or simply an attack on big, bad unions?

I take issue with people who profit off the misery of others. Casino workers are not there for survival. It's not the great depression. Casino workers can find jobs elsewhere now as there's plenty of jobs available in today's market with the unemployment rate the lowest in decades, so there's no reason for them to be there except greed.

Casino workers profit off the misery of others. Now they want to profit off this misery even more?? At least the profits from the gaming commission goes towards paying for health care and mental health workers to help people whose lives have been ruined by casinos, while the profits from greedy casino workers goes straight to their pockets.

[archfan]

I take issue with people who profit off the misery of others. Casino workers are not there for survival. It's not the great depression. Casino workers can find jobs elsewhere now as there's plenty of jobs available in today's market with the unemployment rate the lowest in decades, so there's no reason for them to be there except greed.

Casino workers profit off the misery of others. Now they want to profit off this misery even more?? At least the profits from the gaming commission goes towards paying for health care and mental health workers to help people whose lives have been ruined by casinos, while the profits from greedy casino workers goes straight to their pockets.

So, we should probably shut down Hiram Walker, too?

I get what you're saying, but both are legal businesses, selling to adults.

[davewindsor]

So, we should probably shut down Hiram Walker, too?

I get what you're saying, but both are legal businesses, selling to adults.

Highly off topic. Hiram Walker's is not on strike and making outrageous demands.

[archfan]

If there's a dispute over wages that means at the very least Caesars and the gaming commission aren't willing to accept less. Likewise, the province could find other revenue and Caesars other business opportunities.

So no one involved is a paragon of generosity or virtue, but it's only the working stiffs you have a problem with.

Now is this a moral objection or simply an attack on big, bad unions?

Thank you. This is a negotiation. The Caesars corporation's job is to pay their workers as little as possible, so they can make more money for their shareholders. The union's job is to get as much money as possible, so the members can eat and buy televisions and live life. At some point, they'll come up with a number they both can live with, and they'll both sign the contract.

Are the workers greedy? Are the shareholders? Or are each playing their role?

[Bigdd]

Are the workers greedy? Are the shareholders? Or are each playing their role?

Exactly.

Though the negotiation is highly rigged in favor of the unions [[as with auto unions). The workers can [[presumably) go work elsewhere. But the casinos, car manufacturers have MASSIVE capital investments. The payments on which are hard to imagine. A 2-week shut-down is a loss of a paycheck to the employees,.. but represents perhaps months or a year of profit for the company. That's why as a company,.. you try never to build a plant in a union state. The down-side risk is just too big. You can't negotiate on a level playing field.

[Canadian Visitor]

Exactly.

Though the negotiation is highly rigged in favor of the unions [[as with auto unions). The workers can [[presumably) go work elsewhere. But the casinos, car manufacturers have MASSIVE capital investments. The payments on which are hard to imagine. A 2-week shut-down is a loss of a paycheck to the employees,.. but represents perhaps months or a year of profit for the company. That's why as a company,.. you try never to build a plant in a union state. The down-side risk is just too big. You can't negotiate on a level playing field.

This is just sheer nonsense.

Lets be clear about this, the typical casino worker earns a little above minimum wage.

Most live pay cheque to pay cheque or very close to it.

They don't have huge savings to fall back on, and they do need food each an every week and rent and mortgages to pay.

Caesars and OLG [[the gov't of ON) have amply deep pockets, and will not teeter at the edge of bankruptcy if shuttered for a week or even a month.

The playing field isn't level, its slanted in favour of the business. I say this as an investor and executive; one who by the way does not pay a single employee below $24 per hour including seasonals because I base my business on being ethical and a good employer.

Apart from that, lets add that Ontario's economy is running full-tilt, with historically low unemployment, and decent'ish economic growth coming in the mid 2's most quarters.

It attracts new foreign direct investment all the time, including in manufacturing.

The notion that all work is going to states that enshrine the right of employers to be miserable @#$# is drivel.

Even if it weren't, it would be indefensible.

I am so tired of hearing these ill-informed, opinions that amount to cry me a river for the rich.

The answer to the plight of the Michigan auto worker is not union-busting. Its raising the wage and benefits of workers in Mexico and Alabama; its also lowering healthcare costs in the US, especially for retirees, and that could be done by making medicare more comprehensive, lowering absurdly high drug costs, and lowering medicare eligibility to age 60 which would radically reduce the cost of the remaining private insurance.

Forcing workers to earn crap wages with no benefits such that the jobs aren't worth having is not the answer.

[Bigdd]

This is just sheer nonsense.

Lets be clear about this, the typical casino worker earns a little above minimum wage.

Most live pay cheque to pay cheque or very close to it.

They don't have huge savings to fall back on, and they do need food each an every week and rent and mortgages to pay.

Caesars and OLG [[the gov't of ON) have amply deep pockets, and will not teeter at the edge of bankruptcy if shuttered for a week or even a month.

The playing field isn't level, its slanted in favour of the business. I say this as an investor and executive;

Apart from that, lets add that Ontario's economy is running full-tilt, with historically low unemployment,

If Ontario's unemployment is so low,.. then all employers will be fighting for good workers. And having to pay them more and more to keep the good ones.

I also am an employer,.. and when the economy goes down,.. I can't really reduce wages,.. but for sure I have to increase wages to get good employees when times are good. And I give raises before they ask for them. In fact I have done 3 significant rounds of increases in just the last year and a half to make sure I don't loose valuable employees.

If Ceasers can't get good employees,.. they'll have to raise wages. If they have all the great employees they need,.. then the pay they offer now is appropriate.

Finding and training employees is very expensive. Advertising for them, doing interviews and background checks, training stipends, paying the person who is training them, the costs of the mistakes they will invariably make while new, adding them to payroll,.. etc, etc, etc. Employers have to factor that cost in too. Casino work isn't like digging ditches where it pays to run a meat grinder.

In other words,... the free market takes care of this automatically.