Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

[Bham1982]

Well fuck, I guess no one wants to be in Birmingham if they're having to subsidize housing there too.

There is no subsidized market rate housing in Birmingham, or in any suburb I'm aware of. The link you posted, BTW, isn't even for a residential project, and has nothing to do with the conversation.

Moreover the tax credits that these projects get have nothing to do with level of demand, none that makes people sign a lease. The occupancy rate and rising rental rates speak exactly to the opposite of your claims.

Really? The taxpayer subsidies have nothing to with level of demand? Thanks for the laugh! And the low rental rates downtown have nothing to do with demand either, I assume?

Then why are we handing them out? I assume DYes is leading the charge to end taxpayer subsidies, correct? Because demand is so great, no need for taxpayer dollars, and I'm sure the Manhattan/Hong Kong towers are on their way, any day now...

[Bham1982]

Cut the crap Bham1982... subsidies [[Historic Tax Credits or otherwise) are part of doing business... that's NOT the same thing as demand. Nice try at comparing Detroit to super high density landless Hong Kong.... does somehow using that silly comparison make your argument any less absurd? Doubtful....

If, as you claim, downtown subsidies are irrelevant to doing business downtown, and not reflective of demand, then can someone please explain to me why there isn't a single example of anything being built absent subsidies?

And if you don't want Detroit compared to successful cities, then please name the cities you want Detroit to be compared to. The claim was that Detroit had "super high" residential demand, now I compare Detroit to cities with "super high" demand, now everyone says "no fair", you're comparing Detroit to somewhere desirable.

So please tell us a metro area of 5 million+ anywhere in the developed world, anywhere on earth, which we can use to compare to Detroit, to see if Detroit has this "super high" demand.

And why does no one on DYes want to make money? Why not pool your money and you'll all be millionaires. If, as you claim, there is massive downtown demand, yet no developer is actually building anything, then why don't you buy land or existing housing stock [[you can buy coops in Lafayette Park for almost nothing) and you will all be millionaires in a few months, right? There's huge demand, right?

[SpartanDawg]

There is no subsidized market rate housing in Birmingham, or in any suburb I'm aware of. The link you posted, BTW, isn't even for a residential project, and has nothing to do with the conversation.


Really? The taxpayer subsidies have nothing to with level of demand? Thanks for the laugh! And the low rental rates downtown have nothing to do with demand either, I assume?

Then why are we handing them out? I assume DYes is leading the charge to end taxpayer subsidies, correct? Because demand is so great, no need for taxpayer dollars, and I'm sure the Manhattan/Hong Kong towers are on their way, any day now...

too bad rental rates in downtown and midtown have priced people out of them, and back to the suburbs. i have at least 5 or 6 friends trying to move downtown but are stuck renting in royal oak or ferndale because there is a) nothing left to rent b) few places that are left are out of their price range.

move it along homeboy.

[Scottathew]

too bad rental rates in downtown and midtown have priced people out of them, and back to the suburbs. i have at least 5 or 6 friends trying to move downtown but are stuck renting in royal oak or ferndale because there is a) nothing left to rent b) few places that are left are out of their price range.

move it along homeboy.

This is what I'm hearing from my downtown friends too. In CBD and Midtown demand is larger than supply.

[Wesley Mouch]

If, as you claim, downtown subsidies are irrelevant to doing business downtown, and not reflective of demand, then can someone please explain to me why there isn't a single example of anything being built absent subsidies?
...snip...

Bham... the answer is quite obvious.

Only a fool would reject subsidies when offered.

Better to ask this question...

When subsidies are offered, who would build without taking advantage of them?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Well fuck, I guess no one wants to be in Birmingham if they're having to subsidize housing there too. Moreover the tax credits that these projects get have nothing to do with level of demand, none that makes people sign a lease. The occupancy rate and rising rental rates speak exactly to the opposite of your claims.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ion-state-loan

And on vacant property on Woodward - vacant since 2005. Urban prairie?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

A lack of market funding for downtown residential projects does not necessarily indicate a lack of demand for those projects. "Markets" are far from universally rational. There are any number of conservative, suburban-oriented old white men in charge of the credit purse strings, whose nature is to be overly skeptical of city center projects and favorable to suburban sprawl development.

Of course, these are the same people whose great foresight created Bloomfield Park, because that was not too risky, given its prime suburban location. Much less risky, say, than a fully occupied residential project like the Broderick....

Given the recent track record of housing filling up in downtown and midtown, there is no reason to believe that housing in the Park Avenue or Eddystone would be any less successful, especially as part of the new arena district.

[Gistok]

And why does no one on DYes want to make money? Why not pool your money and you'll all be millionaires. If, as you claim, there is massive downtown demand, yet no developer is actually building anything, then why don't you buy land or existing housing stock [[you can buy coops in Lafayette Park for almost nothing) and you will all be millionaires in a few months, right? There's huge demand, right?

Just stop it! No wonder no one here wants to argue with your silliness...

Only YOU are saying "subsides = no demand". Not true.

[Gistok]

Let me see how easy it is to show that you don't know what you are talking about...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/re...anted=all&_r=0

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3288459.html

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...lan-loft-style

http://archive.freep.com/article/201...dtown-Corktown

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...idential-space

http://www.multihousingnews.com/citi...004094339.html

http://wdet.org/shows/craig-fahle-sh...or-the-auburn/

Sue Mosey, Midtown Detroit, Inc. president, believes that the timing couldn’t be better to add new residential product to the district. “We are at 95 percent occupancy across the entire Midtown neighborhood and don’t see demand letting up any time soon,” said Mosey. “

You so flipplantly called these references "rah rah" articles... yet they are all from reputable sources. But in your usual dismissive way your mind is already made up, not to be confused with the facts!

No one is denying that most downtown/midtown developments have subsidies...but only you is confusing that fact with the concept that there must not be any demand then...

[southen]

You so flipplantly called these references "rah rah" articles... yet they are all from reputable sources. But in your usual dismissive way your mind is already made up, not to be confused with the facts!

No one is denying that most downtown/midtown developments have subsidies...but only you is confusing that fact with the concept that there must not be any demand then...

dont forget the hilarious conclusion that since we are saying there is high demand downtown that we are comparing the city to new york or hong kong. despite his history of this it still amazes me.

[DetBill]

And why does no one on DYes want to make money? Why not pool your money and you'll all be millionaires. If, as you claim, there is massive downtown demand, yet no developer is actually building anything, then why don't you buy land or existing housing stock [[you can buy coops in Lafayette Park for almost nothing) and you will all be millionaires in a few months, right? There's huge demand, right?

Bham1982, please enighten and teach me, how to buy a Lafayette Park co-op now for almost nothing?? Ive lived in Lafayette since 1990 and presently dont see co ops going for almost nothing. Along with quite high monthly fees [[800-1600), on top of equity purchases [[25,000-225,000- depending on what/where your buying.
I wouldnt call this almost nothing, and prices have dramatically increased in the last two years, demand is very high and supply light.. I guess what would we know, we only live here. We need someone from Birmingham telling us I guess.

[hewettbr]

If, as you claim, downtown subsidies are irrelevant to doing business downtown, and not reflective of demand, then can someone please explain to me why there isn't a single example of anything being built absent subsidies?

And if you don't want Detroit compared to successful cities, then please name the cities you want Detroit to be compared to. The claim was that Detroit had "super high" residential demand, now I compare Detroit to cities with "super high" demand, now everyone says "no fair", you're comparing Detroit to somewhere desirable.

So please tell us a metro area of 5 million+ anywhere in the developed world, anywhere on earth, which we can use to compare to Detroit, to see if Detroit has this "super high" demand.

And why does no one on DYes want to make money? Why not pool your money and you'll all be millionaires. If, as you claim, there is massive downtown demand, yet no developer is actually building anything, then why don't you buy land or existing housing stock [[you can buy coops in Lafayette Park for almost nothing) and you will all be millionaires in a few months, right? There's huge demand, right?

Here is a few simple questions for you: Why do you care so much about people who believe in the city or the city itself? Why do you take time out of your day to bash something you don't care about? Why is it so hard for you to believe that downtown and midtown have very high residential demand?

You're entitled to your own opinion but the facts are that downtown, midtown and areas around them are expensive and seeing huge gains in property value. Evidence in this is found in $2 a sq foot rent rates and tons of renovation to get new places on the market as quickly as possible. This is only the start, for a true recovery the outlying neighborhoods will need to be stabilized and reestablish themselves. This will take time but when i read the things you say i immediately think of an old-school ignorant thinking fool. Your way of thinking is whats been holding the whole metro area back for the last 60 years. Open your eyes.

[southen]

Bham1982, please enighten and teach me, how to buy a Lafayette Park co-op now for almost nothing?? Ive lived in Lafayette since 1990 and presently dont see co ops going for almost nothing. Along with quite high monthly fees [[800-1600), on top of equity purchases [[25,000-225,000- depending on what/where your buying.
I wouldnt call this almost nothing, and prices have dramatically increased in the last two years, demand is very high and supply light.. I guess what would we know, we only live here. We need someone from Birmingham telling us I guess.

i bought my co-op in LP almost three years ago and it has doubled in value, which is incredible since there is no demand. i believe the last one to sell got over it's asking price as well. bham clearly has his pulse on the detroit market.

[emu steve]

i bought my co-op in LP almost three years ago and it has doubled in value, which is incredible since there is no demand. i believe the last one to sell got over it's asking price as well. bham clearly has his pulse on the detroit market.

Does bham ever come to downtown Detroit?

I saw a really nice article in Time [[current issue) saying to the effect if you went to downtown Detroit today you'd never know the city had gone bankrupt.

[animatedmartian]

NCAA first and second round tournaments already booked for the New Red Wings area in 2018.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...ames/19173881/

[ghettopalmetto]

I saw a really nice article in Time [[current issue) saying to the effect if you went to downtown Detroit today you'd never know the city had gone bankrupt.

Was that a reference to the incredible amount of taxpayer dollars lavished on billionaire Mike Ilitch? Or am I slightly misinterpreting that?

[mwilbert]

There is no subsidized market rate housing in Birmingham, or in any suburb I'm aware of. The link you posted, BTW, isn't even for a residential project, and has nothing to do with the conversation.


Really? The taxpayer subsidies have nothing to with level of demand? Thanks for the laugh! And the low rental rates downtown have nothing to do with demand either, I assume?

Then why are we handing them out? I assume DYes is leading the charge to end taxpayer subsidies, correct? Because demand is so great, no need for taxpayer dollars, and I'm sure the Manhattan/Hong Kong towers are on their way, any day now...

There are clearly a lot of people who want to live downtown. I'm not sure whether you are disputing that or not, but if you are, either your definition of "a lot" is really large or you are mistaken. Some people would call that demand.

However, there is certainly some question as to how much the people who want to live downtown are willing and able to pay. SpartanDawg's friends apparently want to live downtown, but they aren't willing [[or can't afford) to pay the current rents. They are evidence of people wanting to live downtown, but they aren't evidence that creating new residential units would be profitable, which is the demand that developers care about. I don't think there is really much doubt that some of that demand exists, but it is really unclear what the depth of that demand is, and how price-sensitive it is, and the small current size of the downtown market makes it risky to add a lot of units at the high end of the market, which is where new units are likely to be.

[detmsp]

I think you're all sort of right. Demand is pretty low, but the supply is so low that demand still manages to outpace supply. There are damn near no apartments in downtown so it's not hard for there to be more demand than supply.

Before you start telling me I'm wrong, consider this. Minneapolis is half the size of Detroit. But it's downtown population is WAY bigger.
Downtown Minneapolis: 31,000
Downtown Detroit: 9,000

Expand that to a mile radius of downtown [[to include uptown Minneapolis and Midtown Detroit):
Minneapolis: 124,000
Detroit: 33,000

Hell even Akron has a higher downtown population.

So there you go, demand is low, but there's enough demand for another building or two.

[hewettbr]

I think you're all sort of right. Demand is pretty low, but the supply is so low that demand still manages to outpace supply. There are damn near no apartments in downtown so it's not hard for there to be more demand than supply.

Before you start telling me I'm wrong, consider this. Minneapolis is half the size of Detroit. But it's downtown population is WAY bigger.
Downtown Minneapolis: 31,000
Downtown Detroit: 9,000

Expand that to a mile radius of downtown [[to include uptown Minneapolis and Midtown Detroit):
Minneapolis: 124,000
Detroit: 33,000

Hell even Akron has a higher downtown population.

So there you go, demand is low, but there's enough demand for another building or two.

I think demand is relative to supply, if you opened up another 10000 apartments at market rate downtown and they all filled up within 6 months then under your reasoning demand is still lower than Minneapolis, but in reality there is no way to tell what demand is until you start to level off occupancy rates.

its safe to say all market rate and mid market rate places are basically occupied in downtown/midtown. so until that starts to drop to 90-95% there's in way of knowing actual demand, most people i talk to gave up on living downtown due to not being able to afford or find a place.

this is all my opinion although it is based on factual information. in no way am i calling anyone out with this post.

[Bham1982]

its safe to say all market rate and mid market rate places are basically occupied in downtown/midtown. so until that starts to drop to 90-95% there's in way of knowing actual demand, most people i talk to gave up on living downtown due to not being able to afford or find a place.

LOL. I think it's safe to say that you are drinking the kool-aid, and no, none of your friends have to give up living downtown because there are no places available or no affordable places.

There are hundreds of places available, starting around $400. Takes about 2 seconds to find dozens of buildings with all types of layouts available, at all price ranges.

http://www.apartmentguide.com/neighb...afayette-Park/

[stinkytofu]

LOL. I think it's safe to say that you are drinking the kool-aid, and no, none of your friends have to give up living downtown because there are no places available or no affordable places.

There are hundreds of places available, starting around $400. Takes about 2 seconds to find dozens of buildings with all types of layouts available, at all price ranges.

http://www.apartmentguide.com/neighb...afayette-Park/

He explicitly stated downtown and midtown. I know reading can be tough sometimes.

[Bham1982]

He explicitly stated downtown and midtown. I know reading can be tough sometimes.

And I only linked to units downtown/midtown. What are you seeing that isn't downtown or midtown?

[animatedmartian]

LOL. I think it's safe to say that you are drinking the kool-aid, and no, none of your friends have to give up living downtown because there are no places available or no affordable places.

There are hundreds of places available, starting around $400. Takes about 2 seconds to find dozens of buildings with all types of layouts available, at all price ranges.

http://www.apartmentguide.com/neighb...afayette-Park/

How nice of you to call up each apartment to see how many units are available for each. Certainly there's no waiting list for any of them, right?

[Spartan]

And I only linked to units downtown/midtown. What are you seeing that isn't downtown or midtown?

Uh... almost none of those are downtown or midtown. On the first page of your results, The Albert is literally the only apartment downtown [[brand new, and cheapest apt is $1195), plus one in midtown [[Cass Properties). Maybe Riverfront, if you stretch the definition of downtown [[>$848).

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

And I only linked to units downtown/midtown. What are you seeing that isn't downtown or midtown?

Your link is for "Lafayette Park" and many of the properties are far afield from even that. And there is not one actual bit of information about availability - you have to contact each place. Good try....not