Your "White Flight" Story

[313WX]

Lived in city proper from 03-08...left due to recession. Came back to metro in 2015. Leaving for good in August for better professional opportunities, better pay and better public schooling. There's this perception by employers that detroit is cheap...if I live in burbs and care about quality schooling that's simply not the case. Fleeing high car insurance, slow SMART buses, litter, crappy infrastructure, bottle deposits, $170/mo downtown parking, high daycare costs, and the overall CBD construction project. Every amenity detroit offers is matched by multiple Midwest metros with a legitimate upshot. I love this place, but I can't justify it anymore. The real estate market is at peak so time to cash out.

There's a good chance I'll be leaving soon for similar reasons. I see no future in Michigan for anyone who's ambitious and does not have an Engineering degree from U of M / MSU, especially with the beginning of the next downturn in the Auto Industry [[which is slowly dying any way).

I'm curious to know however, what do you mean by "There's this perception by employers that detroit is cheap?" Could you elaborate?

[hybridy]

There's a good chance I'll be leaving soon for similar reasons. I see no future in Michigan for anyone who's ambitious and does not have an Engineering degree from U of M / MSU, especially with the beginning of the next downturn in the Auto Industry [[which is slowly dying any way).

I'm curious to know however, what do you mean by "There's this perception by employers that detroit is cheap?" Could you elaborate?

my company has several branch offices around the country. I've encountered several local colleagues whose wages are very low for equivalent work to those in other Midwest offices. I myself received multiple job offers with 20% better salary for what I do now. Maybe it's suppl/demand, but my current employer balked at salary ranges I received.

[313WX]

my company has several branch offices around the country. I've encountered several local colleagues whose wages are very low for equivalent work to those in other Midwest offices. I myself received multiple job offers with 20% better salary for what I do now. Maybe it's suppl/demand, but my current employer balked at salary ranges I received.

Thanks for the clarification.

Since the auto industry collapse, companies in Michigan [[that are not the Big 3 automakers) have been squeezing the copper out of a penny, since their cash flows are heavily dependent on the cyclical nature of the auto industry. With labor being a company's biggest expense, it's workers who take the brunt of this way of doing business.

That's largely the reason you hear so many places whining about so-called labor shortages, because they don't want to train people who would accept their abysmal wages yet they don't want to pay the right wage for someone who has the experience / education they desire [[not because there's a literal shortage of labor).

Between having to work in companies in Michigan that will find 6 ways from Sunday to screw you over in compensation / perks / benefits, the long / overcast / snowy / cold winters, the crumbling infrastructure and the dysfunctional governments, it's no wonder young people / professionals are fleeing the state and folks from outside of Michigan are hesitant to move here.

[hybridy]

And based on the earlier half of my career out of state, the 'good ole boy' culture still permeates throughout the area.

[313WX]

And based on the earlier half of my career out of state, the 'good ole boy' culture still permeates throughout the area.

Also true.

Being a part of the "good ole boy" network is virtually a prerequisite if you want to work for the Big 3 automakers in a non-Engineering role.

[JBMcB]

My grandparents moved out of the Moross / I-94 area in the mid 90's. After living there for 40 years with no crime to speak of, their house was burglarized twice, their neighbor's car was stolen out of their driveway, and another neighbor was carjacked in their own driveway. All of this was in the span of two years. They left the following year.

Two years after that, their friends, whom still lived in the neighborhood and were determined to stay, were carjacked in their own driveway, the husband beaten so badly he was hospitalized. He was 90 years old and very frail, you could have knocked him over with your thumb. After he recuperated, they moved out, too.

I have a dozen or so similar stories, mostly involving elderly people being menaced, assaulted and robbed in their own homes or on their own property.

Who did it doesn't matter. Why it was done doesn't matter. All that matters is when you don't feel safe in your own home, most people move.

[Jimaz]

....Being a part of the "good ole boy" network is virtually a prerequisite if you want to work for the Big 3 automakers in a non-Engineering role.

Wait. What? Are you implying there's no "good ole boy" network in engineering? Not to refute, but why would that be?

[[Sincerely. Not trying a set up anyone here. I just find it surprising that engineering might have some social integrity. LOL!)

Edit for a disclaimer: I've worked in both engineering environments, "good ole boy" & "open-minded." In my experience the latter was much more successful for the company.

True genius rarely follows authoritarian rules. Sycophants are most often idiots.

[Hermod]

Wait. What? Are you implying there's no "good ole boy" network in engineering? Not to refute, but why would that be?

[[Sincerely. Not trying a set up anyone here. I just find it surprising that engineering might have some social integrity. LOL!)

Edit for a disclaimer: I've worked in both engineering environments, "good ole boy" & "open-minded." In my experience the latter was much more successful for the company.

True genius rarely follows authoritarian rules. Sycophants are most often idiots.

I am an engineer and have worked in mixed environments with engineers and B-school types. The problem is that B-school types can get through school writing and speaking BS buzzwords and get very good at it. They continue that in the workplace and can cover over their inadeqaucies with a stream of meaningless babble. You can't bullshit your way through an engineering curriculum and incompetence quickly become apparent. Engineers do play the political games in the workplace and can be difficult to deal with, but are nowheres near as good at it as the B-school buffoons.

I

[Oddz313]

Wait. What? Are you implying there's no "good ole boy" network in engineering? Not to refute, but why would that be?

[[Sincerely. Not trying a set up anyone here. I just find it surprising that engineering might have some social integrity. LOL!)

Edit for a disclaimer: I've worked in both engineering environments, "good ole boy" & "open-minded." In my experience the latter was much more successful for the company.

True genius rarely follows authoritarian rules. Sycophants are most often idiots.

Ya it is still very beneficial to be in the who you know crowd than the what you know crowd, that is why I might be leaving after the holidays.

[Bham1982]

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I'm curious to know however, what do you mean by "There's this perception by employers that detroit is cheap?" Could you elaborate?

Metro Detroit is not that cheap. Median home prices are higher than in most other Midwest metros.

If you have or want kids there are like 10 school districts with decent schools, and they're all fairly expensive. If you want a lively downtown + good schools there are like two or three districts and the prices are almost as high as on the coasts.

Then there are high property taxes, high gas costs, no public transit, really, weather issues, deteriorating infrastructure, etc. In terms of what you get, is Metro Detroit really that "cheap"?

And property values barely budge over time. What's "cheaper"? A 500k home that doubles in value over 10 years or a 150k home that's still worth 150k in 10 years? I would say the former. Metro Detroit is the latter.

[hybridy]

Yep Detroit is affordable in some regards, but attractive burbs aren't. The only high quality public school district that doesn't require a 45 min commute to the CBD is Grosse Pointe South, and if I want 3 bed, 2 bath, an attached garage and central air under $300k [[non-condo) you can forget it...

[313WX]

Metro Detroit is not that cheap. Median home prices are higher than in most other Midwest metros.

If you have or want kids there are like 10 school districts with decent schools, and they're all fairly expensive. If you want a lively downtown + good schools there are like two or three districts and the prices are almost as high as on the coasts.

Then there are high property taxes, high gas costs, no public transit, really, weather issues, deteriorating infrastructure, etc. In terms of what you get, is Metro Detroit really that "cheap"?

And property values barely budge over time. What's "cheaper"? A 500k home that doubles in value over 10 years or a 150k home that's still worth 150k in 10 years? I would say the former. Metro Detroit is the latter.

IT was cleared up several posts about that the "cheap" comment was about the employers in Michigan being insufferable cheapskates when it comes to properly compensating employees, which is true.

As far as your response, in terms of "bang for your buck," it depends on how you frame things. If you can somehow manage to make $75K+, you can live like a king in Michigan compared to other major metro areas as you spend much less per dollar and don't have to earn nearly as much to enjoy the same type of big city amenities [[professional sports, world class museums, state of the art International Airport, top-tier theatre district, etc.), that people in NYC, Chicago, LA, DC, etc. do.

Now true, there is some drawbacks. The reason the COL in Michigan is so low is exactly for the reasons you mentioned. But it is ultimately a trade off for the people who can achieve the type of income I mentioned and choose to stay here.