Once again HCMA tells the city to screw off

[Detroitnerd]

Why should HCMA pick up a money loser that the State no longer wants to lose money on? The State was not offering any funding to go with it!

Excuse me. Is it the job of the HCMA to make money or to use tax monies to provide recreation for metro Detroiters? You make it sound like it's a business that should be profitable!

[Novine]

"my issue is that this shows the complete hypocrisy of the region. Whenever regional funds go to help Detroit people are up in arms but blindly allow HCMA to dovert money to specific areas in the region"

I would say this is a fair criticism. Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks funding stream. The city is over 100 square miles in size. The city is by far the largest city by population in the Metroparks service area. But there's not one Metroparks-run park within its borders? How does anyone explain that?

[JBMcB]

How does anyone explain that?

Why is it called the "Huron-Clinton Metropark Authority." The answer to your question lies within the answer to that one.

[wazootyman]

I live in Livonia and not one of the Metroparks is in my city...it's an outrage that when I go to bike in Kensington that I have to drive [[and pay for a season pass). They should put one in Livonia - because I pay taxes for it! Outrage!

Currently, 13 Metroparks covering almost 24,000 acres, serve about 9.5 million visitors annually. The Metroparks are located along the Huron and Clinton rivers, providing a greenbelt around the Detroit metropolitan area.

From: http://www.metroparks.com/content.aspx?ID=19

Can we lower our outrage just a bit?

[bailey]

"my issue is that this shows the complete hypocrisy of the region. Whenever regional funds go to help Detroit people are up in arms but blindly allow HCMA to dovert money to specific areas in the region"

I would say this is a fair criticism. Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks funding stream. The city is over 100 square miles in size. The city is by far the largest city by population in the Metroparks service area. But there's not one Metroparks-run park within its borders? How does anyone explain that?

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

[wazootyman]

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

[Bobl]

From the article:
"...Several board members said they have received a cold reaction from Mayor Dave Bing about the idea of a Metropark at the fairgrounds, which only made it a tougher sell..."
Perhaps Bing has bigger fish to fry, and HCMA has other opportunities. I see no need to continue an "us" vs "them" argument here.

[DC48080]

I see no need to continue an "us" vs "them" argument here.

I agree Bobl. But, sadly, that is what part of the Detroityes community has become. There are some on here that will twist undisputable facts to suit their own agendas.

Welcome to the age of the anonymous internet, where everyone is an expert on everything and there are little consequences for outright bullshit and bombast.

[DC48080]

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

There ya go Wazootyman. I'm glad you had the time to do the research that I do not have the time to do in my busy day today.

However, obvious facts will do nothing to silence the shrill screams that Detroit is getting hosed.

[Bearinabox]

There ya go Wazootyman. I'm glad you had the time to do the research that I do not have the time to do in my busy day today.

However, obvious facts will do nothing to silence the shrill screams that Detroit is getting hosed.

Who are you kidding?

[iheartthed]

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

......So what does this have to do with Detroit being the single largest taxpayer to HCMA but not having a park maintained by them inside the city?

[RO_Resident]

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, .

You can find some taxable value/SEV values for 2008 and 2009 here:
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...acity_2009.pdf

Within the PDF is a link to some spreadsheets with values associated with communities. Delete St. Clair and Monroe Counties and you will come up with the relative contributions by county or community.

[Novine]

"I don't quite understand what you are objecting to. It's called H.C.M.A. because that's where the original parks were. That's *why* the parks are there - because it was the original plan."

I'm objecting to the distortions you were making about the history. The name pre-dated the parks, not the other way around, as you originally claimed. Was there a plan that led to this name? If so, please share it with us. Back in the day, HCMA was going to build a series of roadways to interconnect the various parks. That's why HCMA owned a series of land corridors throughout the western suburbs, parcels that they've largely divested themselves of over the last 20 years. It's also why HCMA was given authority to build roadways in their enabling legislation. That plan belies a claim that it was simply to build parks along the rivers. It's not germane to the current discussion but if you're going to make claims about the original intent, at least back it up with real historical facts.

[DTWflyer]

The HCMA's mission is to provide parks that are more or less, a destination and offer a variety of recreational activities. The State Fair Grounds does not fit the mold of other Metroparks.

The Metroparks were created as a place were people could go and spend the whole day outside, recreating, and enjoying their leisure time. They aren't meant to be neighborhood parks where you go for 30 minutes.

Most of the parks reside on a body of water, most are several thousand acres, have golf courses, paved trails, nature trails, picnic areas, beaches, etc.

The State Fair would've been a completely different type of property that most likely would not have added a significant amount of revenue from entry fees and instead added in a lot of costs into the system.

The Metroparks are adding features to attempt to modernize with the times. Many of them were built in the 1950's and 1960's and have aging infrastructure and ammenities.

The Metroparks ARE one of the region's gems. They offer one of the best regional park systems in the country and we are fortunete to have them and keep them well funded for their upkeep.

[bailey]

"I don't quite understand what you are objecting to. It's called H.C.M.A. because that's where the original parks were. That's *why* the parks are there - because it was the original plan."

I'm objecting to the distortions you were making about the history. The name pre-dated the parks, not the other way around, as you originally claimed. Was there a plan that led to this name? If so, please share it with us. Back in the day, HCMA was going to build a series of roadways to interconnect the various parks. That's why HCMA owned a series of land corridors throughout the western suburbs, parcels that they've largely divested themselves of over the last 20 years. It's also why HCMA was given authority to build roadways in their enabling legislation. That plan belies a claim that it was simply to build parks along the rivers. It's not germane to the current discussion but if you're going to make claims about the original intent, at least back it up with real historical facts.

Since you're talking about "facts"....no comment on the Bing Administration's scuttling of the discussion?

[Detroitnerd]

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

Ummm, Bailey, before we get into that, I would like you to go back in this thread and POINT OUT TO ME exactly where I said that Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks.

[bailey]

Ummm, Bailey, before we get into that, I would like you to go back in this thread and POINT OUT TO ME exactly where I said that Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks.

post #18? READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. it was Novines post... I quoted it in its entirety.

[Detroitnerd]

post #18? READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. it was Novines post... I quoted it in its entirety.

Um, speaking of reading comprehension, why are you ascribing somebody else's position to me? Doesn't that just seem illogical?

[bailey]

Um, speaking of reading comprehension, why are you ascribing somebody else's position to me? Doesn't that just seem illogical?

Settle down there tiger... where do I attribute anything to you?

[Mkap]

Excuse me. Is it the job of the HCMA to make money or to use tax monies to provide recreation for metro Detroiters? You make it sound like it's a business that should be profitable!

There is a reason the State dumped the fair grounds. They couldn't break even. The, elephant in the room, question needs to be raised as to why that is. Naw, I guess it's better to let the elephant wander, and just stay out of it's way .

"It really is time for us to stop sending our money to these folks, take the 0.25 mills and use them for our own struggling parks":
Why not give the city the property, divert the .25 mil tax on it's citizens, and let them use that money to sustain the property, while still giving access to all of the Metro Parks. That way, all of the city residents, even the ones who live waaaay on the other side of the city, can have access to the park.

Seriously though, maintaining that parcel should go private. Government seems to muddle up most of what it touches. Sell it for what it's worth... Capitalism has a way of runing businesses the way they should be run, while making a profit to boot.

[Detroitnerd]

There is a reason the State dumped the fair grounds. They couldn't break even. The, elephant in the room, question needs to be raised as to why that is. Naw, I guess it's better to let the elephant wander, and just stay out of it's way .

No, I guess you have little to no understanding of what state fairs are, their history, and what their purpose is. The purpose of a state fair. These are competitive, recreational gatherings of the population of a state, one big county fair featuring the best of the state.

The whole reason why these fairs exist is because states see value in SPENDING money to bring the people of the state together to celebrate its best. Yes, is that crazy or what? They want to spend money to foster a statewide celebration of togetherness, not to MAKE MONEY.

Jesus, what a country we've become in a few short decades. Screw public purpose, creating a better country, knitting together various areas to unite us with a common sense of purpose. THAT SOUNDS EXPENSIVE! Jesus.

A hint: Not every function in society is or should be profitable. That's why we pay taxes.

[bailey]

A hint: Not every function in society is or should be profitable. That's why we pay taxes.

They shouldn't lose money year after year either.

[Detroitnerd]

They shouldn't lose money year after year either.

It's not a money-loser, Bailey, it's a public function. In other words, we spend our tax money on fostering a more united state. Show me one state fair that makes a profit, anywhere. I'd like to hear of it.

[Det_ard]

It's not a money-loser, Bailey, it's a public function. In other words, we spend our tax money on fostering a more united state. Show me one state fair that makes a profit, anywhere. I'd like to hear of it.

Well, since the State Fair of Texas is run by a private non-profit it can't be said to make a profit, but it receives no state, local or federal funds. No tax dollars to subsidize the largest state fair in the country. There's something to shoot for.

And since we're all outraged by the lack of a metropark in Detroit, let's be fair and move the taxpayer-funded state fair out of Detroit to some place more centrally located, like Lansing or Mt. Pleasant.