Light rail produces a burst of development, but not everywhere

**Gsgeorge** · April-04-11, 02:21 PM

Yes, if Light Rail stopped at 9 mile instead of 8, the line would be hugely more successful. But the hope is that we build it to 8 mile, then the suburbs want in on it too when they see the impact it has on Midtown. Hopefully it will go all the way to Birmingham, maybe even Pontiac, one day...

Vox · April-04-11, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

Yes, if Light Rail stopped at 9 mile instead of 8, the line would be hugely more successful. But the hope is that we build it to 8 mile, then the suburbs want in on it too when they see the impact it has on Midtown. Hopefully it will go all the way to Birmingham, maybe even Pontiac, one day...

This wholle scheme depends largely on the success of any feeder lines that can connect to it. You have to be able to get somewhere else from the light rail, and pinning hopes on development just starves off resources elsewhere in the city. As long as I can take a bus to the light rail, I'm good. Or even park and ride from the ex-fairgrounds.

**iheartthed** · April-04-11, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

Yes, if Light Rail stopped at 9 mile instead of 8, the line would be hugely more successful. But the hope is that we build it to 8 mile, then the suburbs want in on it too when they see the impact it has on Midtown. Hopefully it will go all the way to Birmingham, maybe even Pontiac, one day...

How many people within half a mile of 9 Mile commute to a destination along Woodward between Jefferson and 9 Mile? I doubt that extending it to 9 Mile would make it much more successful, though I do agree that the line should go into Ferndale. But after Ferndale, I think more effort should be spent on restoring rail transit to the other radial corridors in Detroit, like Michigan, Grand River, Jefferson and Gratiot.

**esp1986** · April-04-11, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

Yes, if Light Rail stopped at 9 mile instead of 8, the line would be hugely more successful. But the hope is that we build it to 8 mile, then the suburbs want in on it too when they see the impact it has on Midtown. Hopefully it will go all the way to Birmingham, maybe even Pontiac, one day...

It has to make it at least to the Zoo. Nine mile would be great too, Downtown Ferndale is a popular place these days... drove up from Lafayette Park this weekend, only problem was I then had to drive home. Getting to the Zoo would be great, and within a stone's throw of Downtown Royal Oak would be awesome, so many young people not only live there, but also go up there to party that it would be a big draw for the line. The biggest obstacle will be crossing the line into OC. Not many cities up there could foot construction costs for a portion of the line by themselves, and LB Patterson has said OC will not directly fund construction. So it will take some creative financing/taxing arrangement to get it to happen.

**ghettopalmetto** · April-04-11, 03:02 PM

I'm curious to know if SMART, Royal Oak or Ferndale have thought about starting a shuttle bus service to get people to/from those two business districts to the Eight Mile Road light rail station. I know SMART is probably strapped for resources, but you'd think that the businesses in Royal Oak and Ferndale would have every interest.

**Brian1979** · April-04-11, 03:35 PM

I'd say that it gets extended along Woodward no farther than the zoo and that is probably a little too far, I'd say it only goes to 8 Mile and that's it. Most suburban areas in the U.S. are dependent on the automobile and Detroit should be no different. I'd love to see something in Detroit resemble the Chicago El, but without the lines going down the expressway medians. If you want a good example of the Chicago El going over a street for a good distance look at the green line along Lake Street on Chicago's westside. I think something like that could work along Woodward.

So say if Grand River got a line how far out Grand River would you extend it? I think Farmington would be the ulitmate but I don't think it would go much past the Southfield/5 Mile interchange.

It sure is long overdue for Detroit to be getting a rail transit.

**Russix** · April-04-11, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

...
So say if Grand River got a line how far out Grand River would you extend it? I think Farmington would be the ulitmate but I don't think it would go much past the Southfield/5 Mile interchange.
...

Telegraph is on the list, it would atleast go to Telegraph so it wouldn't dead end somewhere, likewise 8 Mile is on the list too. Grand River widens around Telegraph and the defunct section of I-96, now M-5 would push it nicely through Farmington and out to Novi.

**esp1986** · April-04-11, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Russix

Telegraph is on the list, it would atleast go to Telegraph so it wouldn't dead end somewhere, likewise 8 Mile is on the list too. Grand River widens around Telegraph and the defunct section of I-96, now M-5 would push it nicely through Farmington and out to Novi.

Novi is likely too far. Downtown Farmington is even a stretch. There's not a whole lot between 10 Mile in Farmington and Novi Rd, yet it is another 5 miles or so.

**BrushStart** · April-04-11, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Novi is likely too far. Downtown Farmington is even a stretch. There's not a whole lot between 10 Mile in Farmington and Novi Rd, yet it is another 5 miles or so.

Thank you for pointing this out. I keep reading all of these light rail threads where people propose that light rail go all the way to places like Ypsilanti, Pontiac, and Mt. Clemens. Those are ridiculous distances for light rail, which is an urban transit vehicle. It does short-to-medium runs at a fast pace on a predictable schedule. If people want to be connected with places like Ypsi/Ann Arbor, Pontiac, and Mt. Clemens, we need commuter rail with only a few key stops, not light rail. God help us if any rail goes to Novi. Woof.

**Brian1979** · April-04-11, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Russix

Telegraph is on the list, it would atleast go to Telegraph so it wouldn't dead end somewhere, likewise 8 Mile is on the list too. Grand River widens around Telegraph and the defunct section of I-96, now M-5 would push it nicely through Farmington and out to Novi.

I just don't see anything going too far outside of the city limits. I believe the city limits going out Grand River is 7 Mile but correct me if I'm wrong, I think either Telegraph or 7 Mile would be a good termini for a line.

**esp1986** · April-04-11, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I'm curious to know if SMART, Royal Oak or Ferndale have thought about starting a shuttle bus service to get people to/from those two business districts to the Eight Mile Road light rail station. I know SMART is probably strapped for resources, but you'd think that the businesses in Royal Oak and Ferndale would have every interest.

I know I'm curious to see if SMART and DDOT changes their routes at all to accomodate for the lessened ridership burden once the rail line is up and running. I know there are federal rules regarding cutting service as the result of a federal project, but I believe the resources can be distributed a little differently.

**Russix** · April-04-11, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

I know I'm curious to see if SMART and DDOT changes their routes at all to accomodate for the lessened ridership burden once the rail line is up and running. I know there are federal rules regarding cutting service as the result of a federal project, but I believe the resources can be distributed a little differently.

Isn't DDOT running a 53 Woodward Bus every 5-8 minutes during peak hours? I'm sure route frequency will be adjusted once new statistics on bus utilization come in after it's built. One thing I hope to see is SMART concentrate their existing Woodward services N of 8 Mile to better connect OC to the light rail line. I think this a critical part of light rail's success and future expansion north.

**esp1986** · April-04-11, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Russix

Isn't DDOT running a 53 Woodward Bus every 5-8 minutes during peak hours? I'm sure route frequency will be adjusted once new statistics on bus utilization come in after it's built. One thing I hope to see is SMART concentrate their existing Woodward services N of 8 Mile to better connect OC to the light rail line. I think this a critical part of light rail's success and future expansion north.

I believe federal rules prevent them from cutting service as the result of a federally funded project. I believe they can remove buses from that route and assign them to others, but they can't cut them altogether.

**ghettopalmetto** · April-04-11, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

I believe federal rules prevent them from cutting service as the result of a federally funded project. I believe they can remove buses from that route and assign them to others, but they can't cut them altogether.

I'm not sure what the letter of the rule is, but bear in mind that light rail is actually an increase in service, due to its higher capacity. You could eliminate all of the Woodward Avenue buses and the light rail would still provide a higher level of service than what currently exists.

**casscorridor** · April-04-11, 08:41 PM

The question of needing to extend the rail into Ferndale/Royal Oak keeps coming up again and again on this forum. I think it's a good idea [[especially to connect the Zoo) but it is not neccesary for the rail's success. It has already been established that current bus ridership is high enough on Woodward ave in Detroit to support rail.

As far as TOD, Downtown to New Center will naturally be the center of development. Making this area into a 24/7 walkable area is essential for any comeback. And with the large amount of vacant land, there will be plenty of room for new developments such as Whole Foods.