Detroit Osborn doesn't look bad at all compared to Chicago Englewood!

[wolverine]

I agree with what you are saying but to what neighborhood will they move them out to? and what neighborhood is a good one in Detroit to encourage the same to move to so it can be in a more contained situation.

There will be those who are in situations because of life's unfairness will they be also grouped in and moved out along with those who will never change.It is a common thing when you take and area and "clean" it up there is an element that has to be moved somewhere and usually it is someplace that did not have them there to begin with.

HUD already tried that route with mingling them with the suburbs to hopefully have a positive influence to change ways of life but that seems not to work out well,unless they can figure out a way to separate those that want to change or are there because of circumstances it is a game of shuffle board with way to much friendly fire.

They'd probably move to the suburbs.

There's neighborhoods on the Southisde that are resistant to gang violence. There was an article recently that compared gang violence to disease and how certain neighborhoods almost appeared to be
"immunized". A combination of cultural characteristics and organization to maintain safe and clean neighborhoods. A good tactic is to pull out the bad weeds before they spread. Fight gang crime where it only starts to appear and try to contain it where it remains strong.

Everyone knows CPD enforcement is uneven. The nicest areas seem to be patrolled the most. I don't know how officers are assigned to areas but Id bet alderman in the most stable, tax revenue rich wards see the best of that. But availablity of cops to fight violence in the worst of areas seems difficult with the resources provided which is why I believe gang prevention programs and police resources should be directed to areas where it is only starting to appear. I guess that makes Englewood the loser in all this but eventually the neighborhood will find stable ground.

I worked with local CDCs and churches in the Osborn Neighborhood prior to moving to Chicago where I learned more about Englewood. The neighborhoods are apples and oranges in comparison. Osborn feels much more like a post WWII suburb than an urban neighborhood. People aren't living in two and three flats. They also aren't living in 30 unit apartment buildings. The strategies to fight crime, vacancy, and blight are entirely different in multi-family neighborhoods than one that is almost entirely SFH. We met more homeowners there than renters you'll find in Chicago. And obviously Osborn is in way better shape than Detroit.

Unfortunately Osborn lacks accessibility to good transit tied to hig job centers [[like a healthy downtown) that either provide a good cushion in decline or stepping stone when it comes to growth. Englwood is also surrounded by areas that are soon to receive heavy investment in the next decade. Gentrification is slowly moving in from the East and immigrants from the West. These influences could impact that area in years to come. Point is, it's complete opposite from Osborn in Detroit which I found more blight on the periphery damaging the neighborhood than stability in the case of Engleood. My vancany and crime maps can validate this, but they are 6 years out of date and obviously the recession and foreclosures only made things worse.

[Bham1982]

Englwood is also surrounded by areas that are soon to receive heavy investment in the next decade. Gentrification is slowly moving in from the East and immigrants from the West.

IMO the exact inverse situation is happening in Englewood. In previous years, Chicago had growing numbers of immigrants and gentrifers. Now both groups are in retreat.

In the past [[1980's through maybe 2007 or so), there was massive investment in the South Loop [[gentrification) and massive Mexican investment in Little Village [[immigration).

Now the exact opposite is occuring. Chicago is bleeding population, the Mexicans are moving to the suburbs from Little Village, and the South Loop condos site half empty.

The more likely near-term scenario is that Englewood will become more economically isolated and experience further decline, as blacks, whites and Latinos continue their flight to the Chicagoland suburbs.

[speeddaytwah]

IMO the exact inverse situation is happening in Englewood. In previous years, Chicago had growing numbers of immigrants and gentrifers. Now both groups are in retreat.

In the past [[1980's through maybe 2007 or so), there was massive investment in the South Loop [[gentrification) and massive Mexican investment in Little Village [[immigration).

Now the exact opposite is occuring. Chicago is bleeding population, the Mexicans are moving to the suburbs from Little Village, and the South Loop condos site half empty.

The more likely near-term scenario is that Englewood will become more economically isolated and experience further decline, as blacks, whites and Latinos continue their flight to the Chicagoland suburbs.

The average life expectancy is 25 in Englewood. Isn't that sad? I wouldn't get out of a car in Englewood unless I have 5 friends with me.

[wolverine]

The average life expectancy is 25 in Englewood. Isn't that sad? I wouldn't get out of a car in Englewood unless I have 5 friends with me.

I've heard that number floated around before, I believe it's misunderstood. I remembering hearing 25 was the life expectancy for the average person with a previous arrests for violent criminal acts. And it may have been buried in article relating to gang activity.

Here's a recent detailed report. Looks like the average life expectancy of Englewood residents is between 70-75 years....but that's still not good at all.

http://www.jointcenter.org/sites/def...k%20County.pdf

[Sehv313]

The average life expectancy is 25 in Englewood. Isn't that sad? I wouldn't get out of a car in Englewood unless I have 5 friends with me.

Thats the average life expectancy everywhere in any city, Englewood is not that bad, I got fam on 63rd that's BD's & other cousins thats BPSN, Osborn area aint too bad either compared to most of the city. The houses always looked nice there but crime is getting worse at a rapid pace.

[Brian1979]

Thats the average life expectancy everywhere in any city, Englewood is not that bad, I got fam on 63rd that's BD's & other cousins thats BPSN, Osborn area aint too bad either compared to most of the city. The houses always looked nice there but crime is getting worse at a rapid pace.

You are seriously in denial to say that Englewood is not that bad. What's not that bad about it? It's one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago and you're saying it's not that bad?

70% of the crime that happens in Chicago happens in 20 neighborhoods spread across the South and West sides. Englewood is not safe at all. Also I don't think that Detroit can say the same as far as their crime goes, Detroit is roughly 80% black, Chicago is roughly 30% black, Chicago also has many more nice neighborhoods than Detroit does. You can venture quite aways from the Loop and be in a nice area, you can't do the same in Detroit. Let's say you go up to Diversey and Clark/Broadway in Lincoln Park, well that's a nice area, how about a neighborhood that far from downtown in Detroit? It's not a nice area.

[Sehv313]

You are seriously in denial to say that Englewood is not that bad. What's not that bad about it? It's one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago and you're saying it's not that bad?

70% of the crime that happens in Chicago happens in 20 neighborhoods spread across the South and West sides. Englewood is not safe at all. Also I don't think that Detroit can say the same as far as their crime goes, Detroit is roughly 80% black, Chicago is roughly 30% black, Chicago also has many more nice neighborhoods than Detroit does. You can venture quite aways from the Loop and be in a nice area, you can't do the same in Detroit. Let's say you go up to Diversey and Clark/Broadway in Lincoln Park, well that's a nice area, how about a neighborhood that far from downtown in Detroit? It's not a nice area.

I've lived on 63rd & Normal street for 3 months the summer of 2008 its no different from any other hood in Detroit, I walked the same blocks you speak of no big deal fam, you're lookin from the outside in, If you never lived there you would'nt know, so chill. Of course crime is only horrible in ceartin areas of chicago because chicago is only financially lacking in ceartin areas. So stop google mapping neighbborhoods & actually spend time in them before you start bashing them.

[wolverine]

IMO the exact inverse situation is happening in Englewood. In previous years, Chicago had growing numbers of immigrants and gentrifers. Now both groups are in retreat.

In the past [[1980's through maybe 2007 or so), there was massive investment in the South Loop [[gentrification) and massive Mexican investment in Little Village [[immigration).

Now the exact opposite is occuring. Chicago is bleeding population, the Mexicans are moving to the suburbs from Little Village, and the South Loop condos site half empty.

The more likely near-term scenario is that Englewood will become more economically isolated and experience further decline, as blacks, whites and Latinos continue their flight to the Chicagoland suburbs.

You are incorrect according to the 2010 census for population losses and gains between 2000 and 2010. You are also incorrect according to 2011 census estimates.

Both factual numbers AND last year's estimate validate that claim I made. The US Census shows population gains in neighborhoods that bookend Englewood to the East and West.

Please spend time researching 2000-2010 census results for Gage Park, North Woodlawn, and West Lawn. Some of these neighborhoods produced very robust growth in the last decade 5-10% and post recession gains according to the 2011 census.

These numbers and demographics conflict your claim that those bookend neighborhoods have lost immigrants. Those neighborhoods have lost blacks, but gained whites in areas in proximity to Hyde Park and UofC. This was enough to leave a dent and offset traditional losses. My assumption of gentrification is based off a rise in real estate value, condo renovations and dozens of new major retailers moving in East of Englewood.

Not sure why you mentioned South Loop or Little village. They have no proximity to the areas being discussed and therefore are not pertinent to this discussion. But if people want to know. Little Village did lose population according to the census. But it did not result in vacant housing units. Number of vacant buildings is in the low single digits, so the neighborhood is still doing alright it's just far less crowded than it used to be.

The south loop clocked in at 232% growth. I don't disagree with Bham1982 vacant units exist. There was a lot of speculative purchasing prior to the recession...and many foreclosures came out of that. But if there is continued growth, many of those units will fill back up. I don't expect big numbers like the last decade. The towers are built, there's little vacant land left. Once an area is built out, I expect to see growth percentages in the teens. But anyway, I'm distracted from the original discussion in relation to Englewood....

Bham1982, I know you don't care for Chicago. And that's fine. I have friends in Michigan that don't like it either. But it's not fair to provide misguiding information without much evidence or logical interpretation. It's true the south and west sides are bleeding population, but Chicago is a strange place when it comes to where growth and decline occur. It's not an even distribution and the same goes for crime. It's better to keep in context with the original post. Englewood is obviously an easy Target. It's that one neighborhood in Chicago people associate with the biggest problems. But it doesn't represent the issues citywide, though it certainly represents trending population losses and their effects in relation to the south and west sides.

[detroitbob]

You are incorrect according to the 2010 census for population losses and gains between 2000 and 2010. You are also incorrect according to 2011 census estimates.


The south loop clocked in at 232% growth. I don't disagree with Bham1982 vacant units exist. There was a lot of speculative purchasing prior to the recession...and many foreclosures came out of that. But if there is continued growth, many of those units will fill back up. I don't expect big numbers like the last decade. The towers are built, there's little vacant land left. Once an area is built out, I expect to see growth percentages in the teens. But anyway, I'm distracted from the original discussion in relation to Englewood....

Bham1982, I know you don't care for Chicago. And that's fine. I have friends in Michigan that don't like it either. But it's not fair to provide misguiding information without much evidence or logical interpretation.

That about sums it up...

[Bham1982]

You are incorrect according to the 2010 census for population losses and gains between 2000 and 2010. You are also incorrect according to 2011 census estimates.

Chicago had the nation's second largest decline in population per the 2010 Census. Only Detroit was worse. Are you saying the Census is lying?

There is no 2011 Census, BTW. We only have 2010. There are 2011 sampled ACS estimates, but they have nothing to do with the decennial Census counts. You can't compare one with the other.

Both factual numbers AND last year's estimate validate that claim I made. The US Census shows population gains in neighborhoods that bookend Englewood to the East and West.

The 2010 Census shows massive declines in Englewood, and declines almost everywhere on the South and West Sides. Outside of the Loop and adjacent areas [[which were formerly industrial and now gentrifying, so obviously will show net growth), almost no Chicago neighborhoods showed growth.

Of course the South Loop show massive gains. The South Loop had the greatest construction boom in Chicago between 2000-2010. It logically had massive population gains when you add a bajillion condos.

But the South Loop isn't next to Englewood, and there's no construction boom in Englewood. I don't see why a condo boom in the South Loop back in 2004 would be relevant going forward for Englewood. The South Loop currently has a massive glut of housing.

Please spend time researching 2000-2010 census results for Gage Park, North Woodlawn, and West Lawn. Some of these neighborhoods produced very robust growth in the last decade 5-10% and post recession gains according to the 2011 census.

Again, there is no 2011 Census. This simply doesn't exist. Please show me what you're referring to.

The Census produces no annual counts, and the ACS estimates don't even drill down to the neighborhood level, so I have no idea what you're referring to. They're based on sampled 2% of a jurisdiction, and can't be compared to decennnial enumerated counts.

The overall Latino and Asian populations were stagnant in Chicago from 2000-2010, and Little Village, the largest Mexican community, also had stagnant/slight decline in population. In contrast, the adjacent near west side suburbs had an explosion in Mexican population.

That suggests that Mexican immigrants [[who comprise like 90% of Chicago city proper immigrants) are bypassing the city for the western suburbs. So I don't know why you would think they would magically reverse course and move to black ghettos of the South Side.

Bham1982, I know you don't care for Chicago. And that's fine. I have friends in Michigan that don't like it either.

I do like Chicago, and visit often. Chicago and Toronto are obviously the urban options in this part of the world. But I'm annoyed at the BS that comes out of former Michigan residents doing their stint in Chicago.

Chicago is obviously in much better shape than Detroit. It's obviously undisputed king of the Midwest and one of the greatest cities in the U.S.

But it's in basically worse shape than any other major city in the U.S. not in the Rust Belt. That's why I'm tired at Chicago residents touting their city as a model.

You have this local demographic where people go to, say MSU after having grown up in Macomb Township or wherever, and then move to Lincoln Park for a few years after college, and are shocked you can actually walk to the Cheesecake Factory and McBarleycorn's Frat-tastic Pub. It gets annoying.

Move to Rome or NYC for a few years and then report back to me on the glories of Lakeview.

[bailey]

You have this local demographic where people go to, say MSU after having grown up in Macomb Township or wherever, and then move to Lincoln Park for a few years after college, and are shocked you can actually walk to the Cheesecake Factory and McBarleycorn's Frat-tastic Pub. It gets annoying.

Move to Rome or NYC for a few years and then report back to me on the glories of Lakeview.

Ok. Granted. Chicago is not the end all be all... and it has it's own challenges. Personally I think you're overstating them, but whatever. Point being, the local demographic of which you speak is constantly feeding places like Chicago and constantly moving away from SeM. When they tire of Chi-town and want a suburban life, they're moving to Naperville or whatever...not back to Macomb.