Defund the DPS!

[firstandten]

I agree with this, simply because these people are paid to write these articles and should take their time to make sure what they post is accurate and properly communicated. However, some John Doe on a messageboard? If a person structures their sentences and grammar good enough that I know what they are talking about then I could care less about an errant comma or period or misspelled word.

What we really should be concerned about and I'm serious is the lack of reading comprehension skills and critical thinking skills from some of the contributors of this and most public discussion boards

[mwilbert]

I knew that the DPS kids weren't learning much, but unless I am reading the story wrong they managed to get the lowest scores in the history of the test.

http://www.freep.com/article/2009120...-at-record-low

Maybe Detroit should reconsider whether there is any point to having this school system at all. It isn't doing much for the kids. And it isn't doing much good for the city either. I give the DPS credit for having the courage to have the test taken--but the results seem to confirm my previous idea that getting the DPS to a performance level that a reasonable parent with an alternative would consider for their child is a multi-decade process, which the city cannot afford to wait for, assuming it ever happened.

[Fnemecek]

I knew that the DPS kids weren't learning much, but unless I am reading the story wrong they managed to get the lowest scores in the history of the test.

Not only were these the lowest in the history of the test, the DPS scores are so low that if the students never attended a single day of class and simply guessed at the questions, they'd likely get results like these.

Maybe Detroit should reconsider whether there is any point to having this school system at all. It isn't doing much for the kids.

I concur.

[MichMatters]

And, the funny thing is that the results for the district and the private and charter schools were almost uniform. This is a COMPLETE failure by the local society. It's not even about the intelligence of the children, as some of those questions are so easy, they could have done some on their hands and figured it out. It's about utter carelessness and the society seeming to not having any understanding, whatsoever, that they are competing not just with nearby school districts, but children in China, and India and Brazil and Columbia...when the adults finally get and make the children understand that there are people outside of Detroit competing for the same resources as they are, perhaps that will yield more seriousness in the city. Until then, why the hell even have any educational institutions in the city?

I've finally lost total hope for the city. I feel crushed, today, to see us taken so low. This is not just humiliating; it's soul-crushing. Somethings, like the graduation rate could be debated, but there aren't any excuses, here. There is absolutely nowhere to hide. I used to be one of those that thought you could reform this system, but how can you reform rubble? Forget about defunding the district, I say "tear that sh%t down."

[English]

I didn't intend for this to become a mitpicking session. BUT since you asked:

Did you mean to refer to a nitpicking session?

I am a former Detroit high school English teacher. The tangent about DetroitTeacher's posts is petty and unnecessary. If the "mitpickers" [[sic) in question were indeed serious about discussing the future of the Detroit Public Schools, they would privilege content and meaning over form and surface mechanics.

By the way, there are grammatical mistakes in most of the posts that purport to critique DT's professional knowledge. There are surface errors in the majority of posts on any Internet message board. However, most people tacitly recognize the differences between formal and informal communication unless they have ulterior motives.

If those who critiqued DT are willing to have a substantive conversation about the state of the district, I think you will find educators more than willing to have that conversation. However, spare us the pettiness and condescension.

[firstandten]

Trust me, you would find almost similar results in most urban school districts, of course if they chose to have there students take the test. Bobb had Detroit take it since he knew he would have more ammo to throw up against the wall at the teachers.

Years of lowered expectations, grading on a curve and social promotions have come back to bite us in a big way.

Bobb may want to blame the teachers, and yes they do deserve their share of blame but to me the ultimate blame lies with the parents. It seems that each new generation of parents especially in the inner cities want to be more of their childs best friend, and less of actually parenting, having high expectations of their children and not accepting an half-ass effort from their child. Teachers have told me that in some cases it doesn't do any good to call the child's parents because the kid talks as disrespectfully to the parent as they do to the teacher.

Back in the day we could hide this problem, because the kid could drop out of school, and go to work in the factory the next week making a good salary and live a middle class lifestyle. Those days are over, we don't make anything anymore and the middle class is in the process of being dismantled.

Life is just fun and games to these kids in these failing schools that can't make AYP. The kids getting diploma's from these school aren't ready for community college much less a four year college.

We have a lot of challenges educationally!

[Det_ard]

I can agree with most of what you wrote but the first paragraph. I read the report. Detroit is unique. Most urban school systems may be similar to each other, but Detroit is quite far away from the rest on the graph of 2009 math scores [[see link for graph).

http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_20..._g4_motion.asp
[[make sure you move the slider at the bottom of the graph to "2009")

[firstandten]

I can agree with most of what you wrote but the first paragraph. I read the report. Detroit is unique. Most urban school systems may be similar to each other, but Detroit is quite far away from the rest on the graph of 2009 math scores [[see link for graph).

http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_20..._g4_motion.asp
[[make sure you move the slider at the bottom of the graph to "2009")

If everything is statistically the same in terms of the metrics then that is a very damning report on Detroit

[English]

When we continue to play the "blame the parents" or "blame the teachers" game, our students suffer. I am not concerned with assigning blame. I am concerned with solutions that benefit our kids, which is why I went up the road to research how people are closing the educational achievement gap in the rest of the nation and the world. In eight weeks, I will be done.

I have some ideas, which I posted at length in the thread about demolishing Detroit's schools... I wrote:

"Effective urban educators all over the nation independently have come to the same solution. Schools and auxillary activities [[community organizations, etc.) need to function in such a way where students have the potential to arrive at school by 6 am, and leave a few hours before bedtime. I can cite hundreds of studies on public and charter schools where administrators, teachers, and community works have that much control over students' lives and what they do with their extracurricular time, either through requirements or programming that makes it worth their while to stay. In addition, I have long contended that Detroit students ought to attend school for at least a half day on Saturday. Finally, Detroit students need to attend more than 180 days per school year."

Someone below me suggested boarding schools, but I think that what has worked in KIPP, Capitol Prep, and elsewhere can be effectively institutionalized all over the nation IF we can get the cooperation of groups who have a vested interest in the status quo. The goal should not be for kids to be completely removed from their environment so that they can try to become someone else. The goal is for kids to eventually transform their environment. Nowhere is this transformation more necessary than in Detroit.

We can successfully educate kids, change their lives, and offer them hope. The problem is that most of us who have actually done this with students this aren't very interested in socializing them into the status quo. When you pretend to urban kids that everything is okay, and if they study hard and are good happy shiny people all will be well, and the wonderful nation we live in is a meritocracy, they know you are full of sh*t, and treat you accordingly. When you explain to them the way that the world works, and how acquiring literacy and numeracy can help them dismantle and recontextualize power so that no OTHER group of kids will EVER grow up like they did? I can say with assurance that even kids who have one foot in prison and the other in the grave suddenly become very interested in hearing what you have to say.

For education isn't really about education in this nation. It hasn't been for a very long time. It is concerned with properly indoctrinating young minds into certain ideologies that have FAILED us. Having taught in Detroit and in the suburbs, I can say authoritatively that it is inherently more difficult to do this kind of indoctrination in settings where kids realize the disconnect between what they are being told and the real conditions of their existence.

The first thing I tell future teachers when they ask me how to manage a middle or high school classroom is to tell their students the TRUTH. "The truth shall set you free." When we are deeply honest with ourselves, we know that many adults live divided and insincere lives. Teachers often put on a "teaching persona", and children and teenagers are very aware of this. So when they meet an adult who is about truth, integrity, and character, they will follow you anywhere you want to go.

[firstandten]

When we continue to play the "blame the parents" or "blame the teachers" game, our students suffer. I am not concerned with assigning blame. I am concerned with solutions that benefit our kids, which is why I went up the road to research how people are closing the educational achievement gap in the rest of the nation and the world. In eight weeks, I will be done.

I have some ideas, which I posted at length in the thread about demolishing Detroit's schools... I wrote:

"Effective urban educators all over the nation independently have come to the same solution. Schools and auxillary activities [[community organizations, etc.) need to function in such a way where students have the potential to arrive at school by 6 am, and leave a few hours before bedtime. I can cite hundreds of studies on public and charter schools where administrators, teachers, and community works have that much control over students' lives and what they do with their extracurricular time, either through requirements or programming that makes it worth their while to stay. In addition, I have long contended that Detroit students ought to attend school for at least a half day on Saturday. Finally, Detroit students need to attend more than 180 days per school year."

Someone below me suggested boarding schools, but I think that what has worked in KIPP, Capitol Prep, and elsewhere can be effectively institutionalized all over the nation IF we can get the cooperation of groups who have a vested interest in the status quo. The goal should not be for kids to be completely removed from their environment so that they can try to become someone else. The goal is for kids to eventually transform their environment. Nowhere is this transformation more necessary than in Detroit.

We can successfully educate kids, change their lives, and offer them hope. The problem is that most of us who have actually done this with students this aren't very interested in socializing them into the status quo. When you pretend to urban kids that everything is okay, and if they study hard and are good happy shiny people all will be well, and the wonderful nation we live in is a meritocracy, they know you are full of sh*t, and treat you accordingly. When you explain to them the way that the world works, and how acquiring literacy and numeracy can help them dismantle and recontextualize power so that no OTHER group of kids will EVER grow up like they did? I can say with assurance that even kids who have one foot in prison and the other in the grave suddenly become very interested in hearing what you have to say.

For education isn't really about education in this nation. It hasn't been for a very long time. It is concerned with properly indoctrinating young minds into certain ideologies that have FAILED us. Having taught in Detroit and in the suburbs, I can say authoritatively that it is inherently more difficult to do this kind of indoctrination in settings where kids realize the disconnect between what they are being told and the real conditions of their existence.

The first thing I tell future teachers when they ask me how to manage a middle or high school classroom is to tell their students the TRUTH. "The truth shall set you free." When we are deeply honest with ourselves, we know that many adults live divided and insincere lives. Teachers often put on a "teaching persona", and children and teenagers are very aware of this. So when they meet an adult who is about truth, integrity, and character, they will follow you anywhere you want to go.

Very thoughful post. Hopefully you can share with us your findings, I for one would be interested in your conclusions

[Fnemecek]

English:
Me too.

[MichMatters]

English,

Have you heard of Geoffrey Canada's Promise Academy in Harlem? I saw a piece on it produced by 60 Minutes, the other night, and it seems to be the only charter academy I believe has gotten in completely right. They incorporate a lot of what you talked about, and more. The problem is that it's so multi-faceted, that it'd be expensive to replicate, but damn does it work. The kids are often beating out their suburban and magnet peers.

The entire city of Detroit needs something akin to the Harlem Promise Zone. Read up on it.

[kathy2trips]

Create a new school district with competent people and start over. It's the only way.

[English]

English,

Have you heard of Geoffrey Canada's Promise Academy in Harlem? I saw a piece on it produced by 60 Minutes, the other night, and it seems to be the only charter academy I believe has gotten in completely right. They incorporate a lot of what you talked about, and more. The problem is that it's so multi-faceted, that it'd be expensive to replicate, but damn does it work. The kids are often beating out their suburban and magnet peers.

The entire city of Detroit needs something akin to the Harlem Promise Zone. Read up on it.

Yes, I have heard about "the Promise". There are a lot of isolated examples of urban success, including the Promise Academy, Capitol Prep, and the KIPP model. There's Ron Clark down in Atlanta. And every urban district has its magnet schools.

As I said in the other thread, these "saviors" in urban school districts are not divine. They are doing admirable work, not impossible work. You will find that while the curricula in these schools vary slightly, they have several characteristics in common.

Until now, institutionalizing urban schools that work districtwide has been problematic. Teachers have been resistant to change. I can say that without malice, for this is my lifework and I have been a member of both the AFT and the NEA. Parents have been resistant to change. Just ask Principal Perry back East, who gets up at 4 am and misses breakfast with his own wife and children to pick up students who attend his very successful high school. Communities have been resistant to change. Anything that is not the status quo frightens people, and they very often try to sabotage it. Our society has been resistant to change. People without personal stakes in urban education might sound the legal alarm over long school days or what they see as excessive disciplinary measures.

Vouchers are not enough. Privatizing the district is not enough. What is needed is a radical overhaul of everything that we know and recognize as "education". 180 days in crumbling buildings with disruptive students and well-meaning teachers just will not cut it in 2010. There is absolutely no reason why there is still a 10 week summer break. The ideological and philosophical underpinnings of the core K-12 curriculum have not been seriously analyzed in nearly 100 years. Some of what we teach is obsolete or trivial, and meanwhile, there are entire fields of new knowledge that we miss.

Things are the very worst in Detroit and other urban districts, but true clarity only occurred when I began to teach in SE Michigan outside of the city. Now I am convinced that our entire nation is in trouble. Before we fix education, we have to first figure out this: if we are no longer training our nation's kids to be informed farmers, and if we are no longer training them to make cars, shoes, and widgets, then what are we educating them for?

It isn't just Detroit kids who don't think we have an answer for this as a nation. I've now worked with students in three counties, many of whom are much more privileged than my Detroit kids... and none of them think that adults have any answers for the problems we face.

...but you know what? That IS the answer. They are the answer. Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbI-363A2Q

"We are currently preparing our students for jobs that don't yet exist,
using technologies that haven't yet been invented,
in order to solve problems that we don't even know are problems yet."

That is absolutely the purpose of 21st century schooling. If we gave a rigorous and honest assessment using that yardstick, very few schools in the entire world are thinking this way. Instead, we trot along presenting our watered down and "tricked up" 19th/early 20th century curriculum that will never attract the best minds and those with the best character to prepare our young for life, work, and contributions to a 21st century world.

[English]

Very thoughful post. Hopefully you can share with us your findings, I for one would be interested in your conclusions

English:
Me too.

Thanks. I hope to have something to report about my post-Ph.D situation within the next month or two.

[MichMatters]

We can successfully educate kids, change their lives, and offer them hope. The problem is that most of us who have actually done this with students this aren't very interested in socializing them into the status quo. When you pretend to urban kids that everything is okay, and if they study hard and are good happy shiny people all will be well, and the wonderful nation we live in is a meritocracy, they know you are full of sh*t, and treat you accordingly. When you explain to them the way that the world works, and how acquiring literacy and numeracy can help them dismantle and recontextualize power so that no OTHER group of kids will EVER grow up like they did? I can say with assurance that even kids who have one foot in prison and the other in the grave suddenly become very interested in hearing what you have to say.

English, I strongly indentify with this paragraph. I said it somewhere in either this thread or the other on DPS, but students need to grasp the idea that the world is much larger and more important than they are accustomed to thinking of it as. And, yes, telling students the truth about the real ways of the world will be absolutely essential in getting them engaged in an honest way and not simply repeating routines.

But, with all of that said, don't you think that before you can even get them to this point that there HAS to be structure? I've resigned myself to the fact that while we're undergoing this revolution, distateful things such as "teaching to the test", have to be maintained to offer some kind of structure. Detroit's numbers on this national standardized test don't have any excuse. Even while you're in the midst of changing or dismantling the game, you need to be able to play the game at hand, and DPS and the rest aren't even trying. Look at the question about simple subtraction; I don't care if you are rebelling against the system [[and, I don't think that I'm as convinced as you are that many of these students actually understand that's what they are doing), there is absolutely no reason why a question like that should have been answered incorrectly. This isn't even about the psuedo-science of IQ; you could be borderline mentally retarded and still be able to work through it. This is about utter carelessness on the part of the students, plain and simple. When you're told that the results are close to as if the students had simply guessed them, well, you begin to realize that most of them were simply guessing them for seeming shits-and-giggles.

So, yes, we can't keep lying to the students about the poor aim of our current educational system. But, in the very same vein, we can't continue to excuse to what amounts to pure and utter intellectual laziness, just because parts of the current game we can a system of education is blatantly rigged. In this world, regardless of how fair it is or is not, you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, period.

[DetroitTeacher]

English: I really enjoyed reading your posts and I can relate to what you've said. I once asked my students [[who keep in contact with me long after they graduate) WHY they won't leave me alone [[it was all in fun...they just won't let me have any peace, my lunch hour is spent with kids, my prep is spent with kids, and they email me constantly). They responded that I "keep it real". I am not the only one. They really don't like the teachers who are "easy". They said they like the teachers who challenge them and don't bullshit them. I tell them they are fighting an uphill battle and they have to work harder than most because of their environment, their educational background, and the stereotypes of urban youth. I can say I have the best kids [[I know we all say that) and that I am lucky to have been a part of their lives.

[Rideron]

The DPS provides paychecks to teachers, and at least 25 to 30% of kids who attend eventually graduate from High School. What more do ya want???????

[mwilbert]

English's comments are very sensible, but there are a few points I would add.

1) The educational models that have been successful for the contemporary urban disadvantaged, such as KIPP or Promise, have almost entirely been outside of the public school institutional structure. So the fact that there are models that appear to work is not an argument against defunding DPS.

2) It is far from proven that the KIPP/HCZ model can scale. There appears to be a finite pool of teachers who are willing to work that way, and the ones there are seem to have a fairly high level of burnout. The model currently requires lots of funding from outside foundations, but if the figures I have seen are correct, there are only about 55,000 urban students in these types of programs in the entire country, out of an urban school population about about eight million. That funding probably cannot be extended to a substantial fraction of the students who could benefit. I have heard that HCZ is cutting staff because of reduced foundation support in the recession. I'm not saying those problems are insurmountable, but they would certainly make implementing such programs on a city-wide basis very difficult.

3) My understanding is that KIPP and similar schools insist on a high level of parental involvement. I am all in favor of making such programs available to kids who have interested parents, but there is still the question of what happens to kids whose parents aren't going to get with the program, for whatever reason. I see no reason to believe that isn't a very large fraction of the kids in Detroit.

In my view, the first step is to make it possible for parents who care about their children's education to be able to get a better education in Detroit, and the quickest and most reliable way to do that is to eliminate the DPS and let the parents use the DPS funding in other venues. We also need to figure out how to help all the other kids, but I'm not convinced we know how to do that, or currently have the resources to do it. It is really important that we learn to do it, but we shouldn't wait until we know how to serve everyone to serve anyone.

[MichMatters]

The DPS provides paychecks to teachers, and at least 25 to 30% of kids who attend eventually graduate from High School. What more do ya want???????

Not to nitpick, but the 25% graduation number is thrown around a lot, and is either wrong or reported without context. That number is the number of students who begin and end high school in the DPS, it does not take into account the tens-of-thousands high schoolers that have left the district and graduated from charters, privates, and public suburban districts. Rather than the actual graduation rate, the 25% often reported actually shows the exodus from the district more than anything else. The students that leave the district for other districts or city schools are listed as "drop-outs" by the organization that calculates the rates.

I get irked when I see that number thrown out, because the actual graduation rate is already abysmally low enough for it to not have to be exaggerated. While it's hard to track, the state department of education has calculated [[as it does track those that move to other districts as best it can) the rate over the decade to be consistently at 45 to 50%, which is still horrible, but along the rates of a Chicago.

[mwilbert]

The relevance of the graduation rate is somewhat questionable. When the available evidence suggests that the kids essentially aren't learning anything, one has to wonder what the diploma represents.

[professorscott]

"Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

- A. Einstein

[Fnemecek]

English:
How do you feel about school uniforms?

[TKshreve]

Back in the day we could hide this problem, because the kid could drop out of school, and go to work in the factory the next week making a good salary and live a middle class lifestyle. Those days are over, we don't make anything anymore and the middle class is in the process of being dismantled.

Back in the day you could smack the piss out of your kid if they weren't living up to your expectations. There was consequence. Now we have a powder-puff society that rewards the kid who places 18th out of 20 in a spelling bee. Great work - you're gonna be a doctor little guy.

I'm surprised they took the test. Some actual clarity into the city's woes for once.

[English]

English's comments are very sensible, but there are a few points I would add.

1) The educational models that have been successful for the contemporary urban disadvantaged, such as KIPP or Promise, have almost entirely been outside of the public school institutional structure. So the fact that there are models that appear to work is not an argument against defunding DPS.

Many public magnets and open schools have been achieving similar or better results for decades. Not all of them are schools by examination. Some of them are available to families via lottery.

2) It is far from proven that the KIPP/HCZ model can scale. There appears to be a finite pool of teachers who are willing to work that way, and the ones there are seem to have a fairly high level of burnout. The model currently requires lots of funding from outside foundations, but if the figures I have seen are correct, there are only about 55,000 urban students in these types of programs in the entire country, out of an urban school population about about eight million. That funding probably cannot be extended to a substantial fraction of the students who could benefit. I have heard that HCZ is cutting staff because of reduced foundation support in the recession. I'm not saying those problems are insurmountable, but they would certainly make implementing such programs on a city-wide basis very difficult.

I agree that the model has never been scaled up, but I strongly disagree that it is the only model that works. I also don't agree that we don't have enough teachers who are willing to teach in a structure like this. You have teachers all over the country in failing urban schools who would thrive within a different model. We are also training a cadre of young teachers who have the energy and vision to make things happen, and who definitely see education differently, but we are burning them out not only in traditional schools, but in charters AND in alternative programs where they aren't given a lot of preparation for the populations they will work with.

3) My understanding is that KIPP and similar schools insist on a high level of parental involvement. I am all in favor of making such programs available to kids who have interested parents, but there is still the question of what happens to kids whose parents aren't going to get with the program, for whatever reason. I see no reason to believe that isn't a very large fraction of the kids in Detroit.

There are schools that do well without it. Please read up on Steve Perry's school, Capitol Preparatory Magnet. There are many other schools that operate without a lot of parents. Many of the urban poor aren't capable of supporting their kids' education in ways that are productive. They need help themselves, but that is another conversation.

We cannot wait on the parents. The parents who are well enough to be concerned have voted with their feet and moved out of the city, or have done what is necessary to get their kids into a magnet school, or one of the better charters. That is why schools in urban America have to understand their role in loco parentis.

In my view, the first step is to make it possible for parents who care about their children's education to be able to get a better education in Detroit, and the quickest and most reliable way to do that is to eliminate the DPS and let the parents use the DPS funding in other venues. We also need to figure out how to help all the other kids, but I'm not convinced we know how to do that, or currently have the resources to do it. It is really important that we learn to do it, but we shouldn't wait until we know how to serve everyone to serve anyone.

The parents who are savvy about their children's education are already taking matters into their own hands. One of many things I've done over the past five years is work with suburban teachers all over the tri-county and Greater SE MIchigan area who are experiencing an influx of "kids from Detroit" and don't know what to do. They are at their wit's end with these kids, and these are Detroiters with GOOD parents and families who do realize that DPS is in trouble... but there is a significant cultural clash in their new schools. For parents who remain within the city, the magnet schools have a waiting list, and the better charters like University Prep are also in demand.

Ignoring the kids without parents who have the willingness or ability to help with their kids' education is no solution at all. Schooling is compulsory in this nation, provided by the state, AND the Supreme Court has already ruled against "separate but equal" schooling. Yet in most urban systems, there are two different kinds of schools. When I went to FAMU, almost all of the kids who came out of the urban schools of the North came from their district's magnet schools. Everyone from Chicago came from either Whitney Young or a couple of other schools. Those of us from Detroit who didn't come from Country Day or Roeper were from Renaissance, Cass, or King's special programs. The kicker is that many of us were no smarter than the rest of the kids in the neighborhoods. The difference was that our homes usually provided enough structure so that our parents could figure out we needed to be out of the neighborhood schools.

I contend that parents shouldn't have to "figure it out" so that their kids can get into a good school. Our society cannot wait for the parents to figure it out. There is no excuse for why ALL schools in this district cannot offer a top-notch education. However, even the most hardworking teachers cannot do it in the current structure. Indeed, I'd argue that there are some flaws with existing models of effective urban education that could be actually improved upon if scaled up, but it's a very good start.