Capitalism, A Love Story

[elganned]

Nor does "capitalism" = industrialization.

Farming is very much a capitalist pursuit: the private farmer owns his land and controls the means of production, and private companies handle the distribution. Wealth is exchanged and capital accummulated [[presumably) by all parties. It was done in Jesus' time as well as today.

Cc, it becomes more apparent with every post that you have no concept of what constitutes the system which you so fervently advocate.

[ccbatson]

Successful farming in the modern world, with maximum yield and profit to produce best products at the lowest prices would necessarily include industrialization and privatization [[ie abolishing subsidization).

[elganned]

"In the modern world" is the key phrase in your statement. Farmers have been using the best practices of their time to "maximize yield and profit to produce best products at the lowest prices" for millenia.

Just because we've figured out better tools to use for the process doesn't mean we invented it. Your view of capitalism is seriously skewed.

[Danny]

My question is.... Is Capitalism is a SIN? My answer is YES! and 75% of the various demonational churches agreed and 22% of the demonational churches disagree.

Years ago I wrote a essay about the capitalism in a church in London, England. A Brittish food and drink corporation want to install their vending machine inside the church Narthex. It would bring revenue to the church and to the corporation. But serveral congregtional members voted and said NO! For they know it written the scriptures that money changing and profiting in the church is a sin.

Remember Jesus overthrew the money changers for see he sees his father holy temple has turned a Roman mini mall.

Who thinks capitalism is a sin?

[elganned]

Capitalism is not a sin. And Jesus didn't chase the money changers out of the temple because it was a "Roman mini mall".

The money changers were performing a necessary service for devout Jews. Roman coins were not allowed in the temple because of the law against graven images [[they had the emperor's face on them), so to make a monetary offering the Jews had to exchange their Roman coins for some that didn't have an image on them.

For this service the money changers paid rent to the temple, and Jesus just wanted to stir up trouble for the priesthood by hitting them in the wallet. That's it.

Exchanging money in the temple was not a sin, then or now. Over-charging for performing the service may have been, but that's the sin of greed--something different altogether.

[elganned]

A side question, way off topic: Where was the Roman garrison while Jesus was driving people out of the temple? It was Passover, and the Romans were on high alert for any trouble, and the Antonine fortress was situated on the temple platform. So when Jesus started whipping people and overturning tables and causing a scene, why didn't the Romans arrest him for disturbing the peace? [[This leaves aside the very pertinent question of where was the Temple Guard during all this? Presumably they were on duty in the very temple where all this was happening. Keeping order in the temple was their job, so why didn't they intervene?)

[Danny]

What is the cure from capitalism and plutomony?

A couple of pyschological medical treatments for the human soul:

1. Start communism, you can start the antithesis and overthrow the thesis and let the proletariat run the entire land, no one will own anything. Everyone can work collectively everyday and rest after sundown and earn your production quotas. Free education and universal health care for all.

Side effects" You must deny your religion family and moral values. You must not form assemblies or strike against the state. If your a collective farmer you don't vote. You must not be a free thinking liberal or provide self-thinking art, science and develop technology. The state tells you what you can make with your life. Social realism is REAL ART and the only art. You must not keep anything you have, leave it where it is after you have been transfered to another collective area. You must obey the state and give your life to it. Failure to meet those requirements will be shot with no speedy trial, sent to the gulag to be re-educated.

2. Start Anarchism, you can rebel against the the state and other corporations and start a nature based utopian society where people work and share, farm and gather food for families, start any religious cult or believe whatever you want where rules and laws are almost non existant.

Side effects: You must share, don't be greedy or esle you will be excommunicated from ' THE FAMILY' for a long time. Private ownership is limited, you must share your things with your family. Don't make rules, you will be kick out. Don't start governments, build technology or develop science, you will be excommunicated. You must not fight or kill your loved ones, by equal law of nature you will be killed. [[ like a eye for a eye)

[rb336]

A side question, way off topic: Where was the Roman garrison while Jesus was driving people out of the temple? It was Passover, and the Romans were on high alert for any trouble, and the Antonine fortress was situated on the temple platform. So when Jesus started whipping people and overturning tables and causing a scene, why didn't the Romans arrest him for disturbing the peace? [[This leaves aside the very pertinent question of where was the Temple Guard during all this? Presumably they were on duty in the very temple where all this was happening. Keeping order in the temple was their job, so why didn't they intervene?)

all this is to say that if Jesus existed and if these events actually happened, it is clear that Jesus had a small army of bodyguards/troops, more like a nomadic warlord than mere carpenter

[elganned]

And that is precisely my conjecture, rb336, that Jesus was not arrested because he had an armed mob with him.

Remember that in the gospel it says Barabbas was "taken in the uprising" [[or the insurrection). I have a strong suspicion that the "uprising" in question was the casting out of the money changers, which was in fact the first step in an attempted revolution.

But that's just my conjecture.

[ccbatson]

Largely irrelevant...absent other media, stories [[true, based on truth, or fiction) were the method of conveyance and communication of ideas of that time and formed the foundation of what is today modern society.

[Danny]

Capitalism is not a sin. And Jesus didn't chase the money changers out of the temple because it was a "Roman mini mall".

Yes Capitalism is a sin! In fact it was written in the scriptures that a certian rich man wanted to follow Jesus. The rich man told him he obeyed God, keep his commandments and wanting have enternal life, Jesus said to him that if you want to follow me, give all your possession to the poor and you have treasure in Heaven. When the rich heard his words, he was sad and walked away.

Jesus preached the 'side effects' of the rich through a parable of the rich man and poor man. While the on rich man was dining on food, the poor man [[ Lazarus) was lick the crumbs from the under the table of the rich man. When the rich man saw him, he threw him out of his house. Then the poor man died and went up Abraham's bosom where he dined like the rich man. The rich man ended up in Hell where he suffered and starving. The Rich look up at poor man eating along with Abraham, he said to him. " Father Abraham, please send me some water, so that my thrist is quenched." Abraham replied," No rich man, I can't send you anything to that place of torment for long time ago you he have dined while the poor man suffered. Now its the poor man dined you now suffered. Also there is a great chasm separating from Heaven and Hell so no one from my bosom can't get to you and no one from Hell can't get to this place." The rich man replied. "Can you least warn my brothers about this place of torment!"
"No rich man," replied Abraham," For a long time the prophets revealed the scriptures, but they didn't listened. Soon they might be in this place, too. Therefore of your brothers don't read the scriptures, then they don't know about the one who was raised from the dead."

[/quote] The money changers were performing a necessary service for devout Jews. Roman coins were not allowed in the temple because of the law against graven images [[they had the emperor's face on them), so to make a monetary offering the Jews had to exchange their Roman coins for some that didn't have an image on them.

[/quote]For this service the money changers paid rent to the temple, and Jesus just wanted to stir up trouble for the priesthood by hitting them in the wallet. That's it. [/quote]

I wrote Jesus overthrew the money changers. Please re-read my codespeak carefully before writing your comments.

[/quote]Exchanging money in the temple was not a sin, then or now. Over-charging for performing the service may have been, but that's the sin of greed--something different altogether.[/quote]

Yes it is, including over charging during church services.

[elganned]

Danny, Danny, Danny...you need to pay more attention to the context of the words.

The parable of the rich man [[the famous "camel through the eye of the needle"): The point of the parable is that while you're focused on material matters, you can't focus on your soul. That does not equate to "capitalism is a sin". You left out the most pertinant passage: "Sell all you have and give it to the poor, and come follow me." It's not about making money, it's about getting your mind focused on what's important.

The rich man and Lazarus: The parable is not about being rich, it's about being callous and unfeeling for the woes of others. Jesus didn't say it's a sin to be rich, he said it's a sin to not care about the less fortunate. That's why the rich man was in hell, not for being rich, but for ignoring Lazarus while he was alive.

Yes, you wrote that Jesus overthrew the money changers. My response was that he didn't do it for the reason you suppose.

Lastly, if the donation during church services is a voluntary free-will offering, how can the church "overcharge"?

[rb336]

that is pretty much the standard progressive view of capitalism -- it is not "evil" it is, however, a splendid place for those who are evil to make money, therefore must be regulated and watched

[elganned]

Capitalism is actually a very good system; it's been with us since time immemorial, coincides with our natural inclinations, and has no equal for generating jobs, wealth, and prosperity.

Unfortunately, a completely unregulated market is a bonanza for the cheat, the con-artist, and the snake-oil salesman. Somebody has to referee to ensure that everyone is playing fair.

So I guess I agree with the progressives in this arena. Maybe even with the Objectivists--up to a point. [[Paternalistic and condescending pat on the head from Cc in 5, 4, 3...)

[ccbatson]

You got it Elganned...but you need to move farther in the right direction on many other fronts.

[elganned]

You never disappoint, Cc. I live for your approval.

The difference between us is that I don't believe capitalism is the magic bullet to fulfill all our needs or to solve all our troubles.

[ccbatson]

Sadly for you, that is a very important difference.

[rb336]

It takes great intelligence to admit you are wrong, and courage to admit that your entire world view has been irretrievable disproven. free-market fundamentalist, anti-regulation guru, contributor to Objectivist books Greenspan had both the intellect and the courage. Pity some seem lacking in those areas

[Danny]

Danny, Danny, Danny...you need to pay more attention to the context of the words.

The parable of the rich man [[the famous "camel through the eye of the needle"): The point of the parable is that while you're focused on material matters, you can't focus on your soul. That does not equate to "capitalism is a sin". You left out the most pertinant passage: "Sell all you have and give it to the poor, and come follow me." It's not about making money, it's about getting your mind focused on what's important.

The rich man and Lazarus: The parable is not about being rich, it's about being callous and unfeeling for the woes of others. Jesus didn't say it's a sin to be rich, he said it's a sin to not care about the less fortunate. That's why the rich man was in hell, not for being rich, but for ignoring Lazarus while he was alive.

Yes, you wrote that Jesus overthrew the money changers. My response was that he didn't do it for the reason you suppose.

Lastly, if the donation during church services is a voluntary free-will offering, how can the church "overcharge"?

Jesus overthrew the money changers ouf of spiritual anger for he saw that his father's house[[ The Second Holy Temple of Solomon) was turned 'world trade center, a Roman mini mall.' Nothing unclean should be used or take event in any holy places.

The Chruch is NOT in the money changing business for it is apt. The fifth quote remains NON-SEQUITUR!

I didn't wrote about that rich folks destined to go hell just because they kept their treasures in heaven. Jesus preaches against capitalism and greed by using parables and the gospels. Capitalism remains a SIN!

[Danny]

Capitalism is actually a very good system; it's been with us since time immemorial, coincides with our natural inclinations, and has no equal for generating jobs, wealth, and prosperity.

Unfortunately, a completely unregulated market is a bonanza for the cheat, the con-artist, and the snake-oil salesman. Somebody has to referee to ensure that everyone is playing fair.

So I guess I agree with the progressives in this arena. Maybe even with the Objectivists--up to a point. [[Paternalistic and condescending pat on the head from Cc in 5, 4, 3...)

Capitalism is not a very good system. It is the series of more taking of private ownership from people for the private ownership of others and less giving to communities. It's a not a perfect utopian system and its not a government. It's the plutonomist system control for more synegized distrubution of goods and services in mass production scale for competitive pruposes. [[ One would win the other will lose leaving behind a wasteful properties for future use.)

You are absolutely right about the unregulated market. Lot's of corporate shareholders and investment brokers have took their other investors' monies and run. [[ Just like Bernie Madoff) In the U.S. Wall Street unregulated since the Reagan Administration and now the various U.S. Banks want more taxpayers' monies from congress to save their rich empire from economic bankruptcy. Wall Street since 1980 have been treated with the same rights as various T.V. radio and film media industries as a human beings according to the fourteeth admendment of the Bill of Rights.

Today Wall Street remains rich by playing ' Pinocchio lobby politics', people loss their jobs in United States, millions of Americans are now in debt and losing their homes in the flash and we, the taxpayers and paying congress for the bailout monies they gave to Wall Street and banking industries. The Government shouldn't gave Wall Street and banks goons our hard earned money. Those monies should be going to work programs to have millions of Americans back to work.


WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Congress needs to bailout the American People instead of Wall Street for Neda Soltani's sake.

[elganned]

Jesus overthrew the money changers ouf of spiritual anger for he saw that his father's house[[ The Second Holy Temple of Solomon) was turned 'world trade center, a Roman mini mall.' Nothing unclean should be used or take event in any holy places.

No, he didn't. He overthrew them because they had a monopoly on the service and were price-gouging the devout, who had nowhere else to turn. And nowhere in the Bible does it state that changing money is "unclean". Oh, and BTW it wasn't the Temple of Solomon, it was Herod's Temple. Solomon's Temple was destroyed centuries before. Get your history straight, son.

The Chruch is NOT in the money changing business for it is apt. The fifth quote remains NON-SEQUITUR!

I didn't say anything about the church being in the money-changing business. I was responding to your statement that overcharging during church services was a sin. Which I still wonder what did you mean by that?

I didn't wrote about that rich folks destined to go hell just because they kept their treasures in heaven. Jesus preaches against capitalism and greed by using parables and the gospels. Capitalism remains a SIN!

Aside from the fact that I can't understand what that first part means, the great thing about parables is that they can be interpreted more than one way. You keep on believing what your mama and the preachers told you it means; I'll keep using my own judgement to figure out what I think it means.

[elganned]

You know, discussing things with you would be a whole lot easier if you would learn to write in English.

Capitalism is not a very good system. It is the series of more taking of private ownership from people for the private ownership of others and less giving to communities. It's a not a perfect utopian system

No one on this board--besides maybe Cc--has ever claimed that it is.

and its not a government.

Again, no one has ever claimed that it is.

It's the plutonomist system control for more synegized distrubution of goods and services in mass production scale for competitive pruposes. [[ One would win the other will lose leaving behind a wasteful properties for future use.)

Here is where you depart from comprehensibility. [[Do you ever read back over what you've written to see if it makes any sense?) So, since I can't make head nor tails of that last paragraph, we'll move on without comment.

You are absolutely right about the unregulated market. Lot's of corporate shareholders and investment brokers have took their other investors' monies and run. [[ Just like Bernie Madoff) In the U.S. Wall Street unregulated since the Reagan Administration and now the various U.S. Banks want more taxpayers' monies from congress to save their rich empire from economic bankruptcy. Wall Street since 1980 have been treated with the same rights as various T.V. radio and film media industries as a human beings according to the fourteeth admendment of the Bill of Rights.

Again, incomprehensible.

Today Wall Street remains rich by playing ' Pinocchio lobby politics',

[[Pinocchio?? WTF?)

people loss their jobs in United States, millions of Americans are now in debt and losing their homes in the flash and we, the taxpayers and paying congress for the bailout monies they gave to Wall Street and banking industries.

Those jobs came from capitalism. People are in debt and losing their homes because of rapacious capitalism, not the garden variety. You have to keep from throwing out the baby with the bathwater. [quote]The Government shouldn't gave Wall Street and banks goons our hard earned money. Those monies should be going to work programs to have millions of Americans back to work.[/quote] And when those Americans finally go back to work--and they will--it will be at jobs provided by capitalists doing what capitalists do.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

About the only similarity I can see between you and any "prophet" are that you both speak in tongues that only you can understand.

Congress needs to bailout the American People instead of Wall Street for Neda Soltani's sake.

Please stop invoking Neda Soltani as a reason for anything and everything. She was an Iranian dissident who had absolutely nothing to say about or to do with the US economy.

[Danny]

No, he didn't. He overthrew them because they had a monopoly on the service and were price-gouging the devout, who had nowhere else to turn. And nowhere in the Bible does it state that changing money is "unclean". Oh, and BTW it wasn't the Temple of Solomon, it was Herod's Temple. Solomon's Temple was destroyed centuries before. Get your history straight, son.[/b]I didn't say anything about the church being in the money-changing business. I was responding to your statement that overcharging during church services was a sin. Which I still wonder what did you mean by that?Aside from the fact that I can't understand what that first part means, the great thing about parables is that they can be interpreted more than one way. You keep on believing what your mama and the preachers told you it means; I'll keep using my own judgement to figure out what I think it means.

The history of the Gospels of Jesus Christ remains spiritually TRUE that was foretold be the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, his disciples. moneychanging is a SIN for Jesus overturned them all out of spiritual anger for he has saw that father's house a 'world trade center' nothing else about 'monopoly on the service and were price-gouging the devout.'

During Jesus' childhood according to Matthew, Jesus wandered to the [[ The Second Temple of King Solomon) where he talked to the rabbais and priests about the Kingdom of God. It the time there were NO MONEY CHANGERS! they were at the local bazaars.

The overcharging statement. Please be clear of what are writing about. Otherwise, your comments will remain NON-SEQUITUR.

Herod's Temple is also called [[The second Temple of King Solomon) words can have similar meaning. History doesn't have to be absolutely true, it can be fill with lies. Look what happen to the Greek Historian Herodotus of Halicarnassus after he published 'The Histories.'

[elganned]

The history of the Gospels of Jesus Christ remains spiritually TRUE that was foretold be the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, his disciples. moneychanging is a SIN for Jesus overturned them all out of spiritual anger for he has saw that father's house a 'world trade center' nothing else about 'monopoly on the service and were price-gouging the devout.'

*shrug* You read it your way, I'll read it mine.

During Jesus' childhood according to Matthew, Jesus wandered to the [[ The Second Temple of King Solomon) where he talked to the rabbais and priests about the Kingdom of God. It the time there were NO MONEY CHANGERS! they were at the local bazaars.

Where in the gospels does it specifically say that there were no money changers at the temple when Jusus went there as a child? Point it out to me. Otherwise that's just an assumption on your part and goes against everything we know from history and archeology.

The overcharging statement. Please be clear of what are writing about. Otherwise, your comments will remain NON-SEQUITUR.

Hey, I didn't bring it up, you did. Either explain it or your comments will remain non sequitur. [[Which, BTW, is an expression which you clearly don't understand, as your use of it here is itself a non sequitur.)

Herod's Temple is also called [[The second Temple of King Solomon) words can have similar meaning.

Point out one place where it's called the second Temple of Solomon [[other than some preacher's commentary), and maybe I'll believe you. However, in all of my readings--and they have been extensive--nobody of that time ever referred to it as such.

History doesn't have to be absolutely true, it can be fill with lies.

So can scripture, but that doesn't keep you from citing it as authoritative. Personally, I'll take my chances with history.

Look what happen to the Greek Historian Herodotus of Halicarnassus after he published 'The Histories.'

Um, what happened to him, other than he lived a long life and died quietly in his sleep?

[rb336]

Recent scholarship has validated many of Herodotus' most-often questioned claims