Michigan population declines for second consecutive year

[stasu1213]

What is mass transit nut?

Mass transit is mass transportation such as light rail. A vehicle that can carry and transport multiple of people. 100 years ago Michigan had one of the best light rail systems in the country. It traveled as far as Grand Rapids. This is what Michigan need to help bring more people back to this state. The bus service that will carry commuters from Detroit to Ann Arbor is a start

[ABetterDetroit]

Shave the income tax one point. Flatten the property tax state wide by a whole lot. They are way to high here to be competitive with other states. REPLACE the revenue with increases in use taxes, sales taxes on services, entertainment, groceries etc…

Do something different for a change. It is not impossible. Copy the taxation policies of successful states and abandon what has already failed. Stop pointing fingers and fix what is broken. It is not brain surgery.

[Jimaz]

USA population by states [[1960-2022)

[Richard]

USA population by states [[1960-2022)

not that it matters but that does not reflect the population loss that California has experienced in the past 2 years,it shows a continuous gain, it’s also about 1.5 million short on Florida estimates with most likely another at least 2-3 million in undocumented.

Look at the massive drop in Michigan 1 million loss 2021-2022 what does that tell you ?

What I have noticed also is the counts are only counting movement within the country from state to state,not counting the additional hundreds of thousands of those who left Puerto Rico starting in 2004 and increased after hurricane Maria,which basically consists of the younger generation while leaving the older generation behind.

Let alone another 4.5 million in 2 years from across the southern border.

Where did they go ?

That’s why I do not think these population counts are not even close to being accurate and most likely grossly under counting in some states.

New Data Reveal Most Populous Cities Experienced Some of the Largest Decreases


While New York City remained the city with the largest numeric decrease, its population decline in 2021 [[305,465) was nearly six times its numeric decrease in 2019 [[53,624).
Chicago, Illinois, had a similar experience. Still ranked third with a numeric decrease of 45,175 in 2021, its population dropped by only 7,447 [[six times less) in 2019.
All told, the cities with the largest numeric drop in population had a combined loss of nearly 609,800 a year into the pandemic, compared to about 102,700 between 2018 and 2019 [[Table 7 and Table 8).

https://www.census.gov/library/stori...-pandemic.html

That jump says it has more to do with how one feels about personal freedoms verses high taxes etc.

Otherwise they would have seen the same amount of losses pre pandemic verses post pandemic,unless they were thinking about moving before and the pandemic time off gave them the opportunity,but that is a massive jump over the regular outflow they were already experiencing.

[Richard]

Shave the income tax one point. Flatten the property tax state wide by a whole lot. They are way to high here to be competitive with other states. REPLACE the revenue with increases in use taxes, sales taxes on services, entertainment, groceries etc…

Do something different for a change. It is not impossible. Copy the taxation policies of successful states and abandon what has already failed. Stop pointing fingers and fix what is broken. It is not brain surgery.

But even though you are well aware of what needs to be done,people will defend to the death the very same policies that are destroying you,you do not have to change your stripes or become a traitor,you just have to stop supporting those destructive policies when you know they are.

You are right,it is not brain surgery,and nothing happens different in today that has not already been tried in the past,we have history as a guide as to what works and what does not.

[313WX]

Shave the income tax one point. Flatten the property tax state wide by a whole lot. They are way to high here to be competitive with other states. REPLACE the revenue with increases in use taxes, sales taxes on services, entertainment, groceries etc…

Do something different for a change. It is not impossible. Copy the taxation policies of successful states and abandon what has already failed. Stop pointing fingers and fix what is broken. It is not brain surgery.

If what you suggest is the real issue with Michigan, then explain Minnesota, or even Georgia and North Carolina?

Texas, despite having no income tax, has some of the highest property taxes in the country. And Florida can get away with relatively low property taxes and no income tax because of tourism.

Surely, Michigan's problems have nothing to do with the fact that its *ONLY* major city is a hollowed out post-apocalyptic hellhole, or the fact that the state's economy is entirely dependent on 3 poorly-run companies in a terminal decline, or the fact that basic infrastructure such as roads and water/sewerage is falling apart, or the fact that the state/local governments have refused to compete with the generous subsidies sunbelt states offer to attract capital investments...

[Ray1936]

And Florida can get away with relatively low property taxes and no income tax because of tourism..

Same here in Nevada.

[ABetterDetroit]

If what you suggest is the real issue with Michigan, then explain Minnesota, or even Georgia and North Carolina?

Texas, despite having no income tax, has some of the highest property taxes in the country. And Florida can get away with relatively low property taxes and no income tax because of tourism.

Surely, Michigan's problems have nothing to do with the fact that its *ONLY* major city is a hollowed out post-apocalyptic hellhole, or the fact that the state's economy is entirely dependent on 3 poorly-run companies in a terminal decline, or the fact that basic infrastructure such as roads and water/sewerage is falling apart, or the fact that the state/local governments have refused to compete with the generous subsidies sunbelt states offer to attract capital investments...

What is to explain? Georgia, North Carolina have considerably lower property taxes than Michigan and for that matter even Minnesota does also.

Who doesn’t know someone with young with children in their prime earning years that has moved to Georgia, North Carolina or Colorado from here recently by now? The first thing out of their mouth after the weather is how much more house you can buy with a smaller payment because the property taxes are so much lower.

This issue has nothing to do with political ideology and everything to do with being competitive with other states. Don’t compete and Michigan will continue to lose. Simple.

http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/p...y-tax-by-state

[Meddle]

I left in '98. Used the proceeds from selling my house there to buy a old farmhouse on 2 acres. Spent some money on renovations, but saved a lot by doing most everything myself.

My property taxes are under $400/year [no typo]. My entire monthly expenses including all utilities and home insurance is around $300, give or take a bit.

On my current income, I can pay all bills and stash some in savings. I'm not sure I'd be able to pay the property taxes alone up there any more, not considering utilities and insurance.

[313WX]

What is to explain? Georgia, North Carolina have considerably lower property taxes than Michigan and for that matter even Minnesota does also.

The point is, Minnesota, Georgia and North Carolina's property taxes aren't exactly low. They're solidly in the middle.

Plus, they also have higher income and sales taxes than Michigan [[in some cases significantly so).

People [[specifically young people in their prime earning and child-bearing years) move to those states because they have healthy/vibrant major cities, plentiful job opportunities and infrastructure that's not crumbling. It has little to do with the income or property tax rates.

The best way for Michigan to compete is to offer better subsidies for corporate relocations/expansions, invest more money into improving/modernizing its infrastructure, and implement some type of Marshall plan to make Detroit a safe and livable city.

[ABetterDetroit]

The point is, Minnesota, Georgia and North Carolina's property taxes aren't exactly low. They're solidly in the middle.

Plus, they also have higher income and sales taxes than Michigan [[in some cases significantly so).

People [[specifically young people in their prime earning and child-bearing years) move to those states because they have healthy/vibrant major cities, plentiful job opportunities and infrastructure that's not crumbling. It has little to do with the income or property tax rates.

The best way for Michigan to compete is to offer better subsidies for corporate relocations/expansions, invest more money into improving/modernizing its infrastructure, and implement some type of Marshall plan to make Detroit a safe and livable city.

I counter that you are not actually communicating with people that have made the move. I have heard the same story over and over for years. Paraphrasing them all together it goes like this:

’We started looking at houses here because of X… the payments were so high that when we looked in Colorado on internet we couldn’t believe how much more house we could get… and since I can get a job anywhere in my field and she can work from home anywhere in the country…’

Next comes job search success. Moving company called. Done. Game over for Michigan. In demand jobs skills have never been more highly mobile and it’s only getting worse quickly. Practically nobody stays at the same company for a career anymore.

Monthly payment of home ownership and what one gets for it is a huge driver. Uncapping the property taxes for young families that need to upgrade their house or want to stop renting to own is brain dead. It is a massive incentive for growing families with skills to move out of state when a change in housing is needed. It is stupid and insane. Only in Michigan could something so blatantly obvious be ignored. With higher interest rates the problem gets even worse as every last penny in the house payment is measured.

[Richard]

I left in '98. Used the proceeds from selling my house there to buy a old farmhouse on 2 acres. Spent some money on renovations, but saved a lot by doing most everything myself.

My property taxes are under $400/year [no typo]. My entire monthly expenses including all utilities and home insurance is around $300, give or take a bit.

On my current income, I can pay all bills and stash some in savings. I'm not sure I'd be able to pay the property taxes alone up there any more, not considering utilities and insurance.

In Florida I am at $550 property tax but it is capped at no more then 3% increase as long as I own it,if I sell in order to upgrade and spend all of the money on the new house I would pay no capital gains taxes and the 3% cap follows me,but the property tax would naturally have an increase according to the purchase price,same as Detroit.

At total of $800 per month total expenses no mortgage,but that does not include insurance and our auto insurance is competing with Detroit rates.

With the hurricanes to add insurance would be about $4000 a year,depending on house values many are paying over $6000 per year,I have not run the numbers verses Detroit when we factor in insurance,it’s probably pretty close.

In comparison say a $600k house in Detroit you would be looking at an easy 12k a year in insurance here,so it kinda evens out.

Car insurance on my 24 yo Jag is $2400 per year,that is just basic insurance requirements to tag it.

Massive difference in homestead as my other house is $2800 taxes non homestead.

Now a 1 bedroom 600 sqft is $1500 rental but during the last crash I bought 2 fixer uppers for $6000 now they are at $240k but that was timing,I am not really seeing a difference between Detroit verses Tampa,Detroit appears to easier to get into home ownership for service workers,Forget about it in Florida,a house in the shoot ‘em up ghetto is $250 k a 3 bedroom house is $3500 rent in an iffy neighborhood with bad schools,if you can find one.

Pretty much every reason not to move here now,but yet everywhere you look they are building and filling up 200-300 unit apartment buildings and 2000 home subdivisions where the houses start at $450k.

So why are so many leaving up north for here?

I have not done it in a few years but at that time there was only $100 difference between COL in Tampa versus Detroit.

So it is not about high taxes,rough neighborhoods,little options etc. those are all just excuses so one can avoid dealing with the real issues,just as so many have blocked me because they do not want to hear anything but what they want to hear,clearly it’s not working.

It’s not just Detroit,this same discussion can be had in a majority of major cities up north.

Millions of people fled during and after the pandemic one can believe what they want but there is a basic message in there that says what people value the most,high taxes play a role,but yet people continue to live in high tax states.

The biggest thing is to elect people that will work for you not people that want to dictate and control you,I can say it 1000 times but it does not matter,those politicians work for you,they are not your boss or your leaders,it does not matter what stripe one wears or who one votes for,outside of that keep doing the same thing while expecting different results.

[313WX]

I counter that you are not actually communicating with people that have made the move...

FYI, I *AM* someone who made the move.

[Richard]

FYI, I *AM* someone who made the move.

So what motivated you to move? It’s usually a decision not made lightly and out of frustration.

[313WX]

So what motivated you to move? It’s usually a decision not made lightly and out of frustration.

All of the above reasons I gave already. Taxes were never a factor in my decision. I suspect if you ask most young people, they'd tell you the same.

What it comes down to is the average person would rather not live in a place they feel is in decline if given the choice. Life's too short for that.

The question, what is Michigan [[meaning its leaders) doing to convince folks like me to move there?

[Richard]

All of the above reasons I gave already. Taxes were never a factor in my decision. I suspect if you ask most young people, they'd tell you the same.

What it comes down to is the average person would rather not live in a place they feel is in decline if given the choice. Life's too short for that.

The question, what is Michigan [[meaning its leaders) doing to convince folks like me to move there?

Like was already mentioned by another poster,I meet probably just as many people from Michigan in Florida as I would if I was living in Michigan,current conditions are low on the list,it is that forward movement people are looking for,when things become stagnant people leave.

But you see that here in the forums,the first response towards others is,you do not live here so your input carries no relevance,which is the mindset that totally rejects the concept of what does it take to convince you to move and invest here.

The top is regulated by the will of the people even worse locally the attitude that is presented at the city council meetings is not one of encouragement.

I hate to say it,but as long as they are not commy socialist wannabes,maybe it is time for the younger generation to actually step in at that level and start replacing that mindset that carries and keeps alive the baggage of the past.

Being that far down on the totem pole as the city was,is actually a blessing in disguise,because in moving forward they can look at what worked in other cities and what did not,people seem to forget many other cities that they are comparing themselves to were in the same place Detroit is today 25 years ago and now many of those same cities are reverting back to the old way of thinking and are now back to the population declining stage.

Go back to the late 70s - 80s places like Miami and Minneapolis were no different then Detroit is today,actually worse in many ways.

These project announcements that are designed to inspire hope for a better future and give the illusion of forward movement only work when it is a combination of investor confidence with the support and encouragement of local and state government,without that total package people figure it out and it backfires.

As an outsider I do see a mayor doing what he can but he is limited in scope,but it does show that there are enough people that can see what it takes,but it falls off of the cliff after him.

Forget about taxes,insurance transit issues,potholes,it’s all there to keep you distracted from addressing the real issues, and all of the other stuff for the moment,it’s all window dressing,because none of that gets resolved unless you have strong city and state government.

The only thing that it is accomplishing is people are getting frustrated and leaving,the way I see it,sooner or later people are going to have to stand up as a majority and demand better,if not things will stay the same,all that passion directed towards the flavor of the day may be self satisfying at the moment but long term it is wasted energy.

Long term you see the results.

[stasu1213]

Michigan have to focus on getting or attracting different type of companies to this state instead of just automobile related independent companies. The Eastside of Detroit is being gobbled up by FCA around the Jefferson to E Warren area. True Chrysler employs residents. However, who want to live next to or a few miles from a factory. Detroiters are mad at Gilbert and Bedrock for getting incentives that were designed to be allocated for the downtown area. No one is complaining about Chrysler getting tax breaks and allowed to gobble up much of the lower Eastside. Michigan including Detroit should focus on strong affordable neighborhoods where working class people having different skills could live. Have more alternative means of traveling across the State instead of automobiles

[401don]

Michigan have to focus on getting or attracting different type of companies to this state instead of just automobile related independent companies. The Eastside of Detroit is being gobbled up by FCA around the Jefferson to E Warren area. True Chrysler employs residents. However, who want to live next to or a few miles from a factory. Detroiters are mad at Gilbert and Bedrock for getting incentives that were designed to be allocated for the downtown area. No one is complaining about Chrysler getting tax breaks and allowed to gobble up much of the lower Eastside. Michigan including Detroit should focus on strong affordable neighborhoods where working class people having different skills could live. Have more alternative means of traveling across the State instead of automobiles

"gobble up much of the lower Eastside". You're kidding right?
There's enough empty land on the east side for tree farms and wild life. I don't think Chrysler is stopping additional development. What do you want the state to do exactly to attract these companies? You seem to be against tax incentives.