Return of the Q line

[bust]

Lol, opposed to transit? If you only knew me in my day job.

I didn't intend to express _you_ are opposed to transit. It was to question the double standard so many have who oppose investing in transit for its cost while they expect more and better and more better roads for free, despite the costs.

Detroit remains a rich region so we could pay for it.

I also didn't intend to suggest it's feasible in Detroit in today's economic, political, budgetary, etc. environment. All those things are of course related, and all to our loss.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Richard]

Well there is a silver lining for mass transit in the new infrastructure bill,it allows for the establishment of a government agency to implement a pay per mile fee for those who own automobiles.

So they will use data collected from your cell phone,gas station receipts and embedded chips in vehicles,it is a sliding scale of how much your vehicle emits in carbon.

So EVs get to motor about freely while everybody else pays for it,kinda makes delivery trucks expensive to operate,which should force more rail transport.

So hopefully it will pretty much eliminate the lower income from being able to afford a vehicle,which will increase ridership,it should only allow the upper middle class or rich to be able to afford to operate a vehicle.

Cheap options like Uber will no longer be cheap,when gas hit $5 per gallon it was already proven that mass transit ridership increased by 50%.

They could have just implemented a VAT road tax like they do in the UK,but I kinda like the government tracking me everywhere I go,it gives me security in knowing they are sitting there right along side of me in order to protect me,plus there is the added joy of knowing I am saving the planet.

So the good news it it will no longer be called mass transit options,it will be the only option for many.

So it is probably a good idea to hitch onto that bandwagon now,otherwise when it kicks in,if you are not prepared,it’s a long walk in from the suburbs to the city.

[ShadowSoarer]

Below is a link to a community survey from the RTA of Southeast Michigan if anyone is interested:

https://publicinput.com/N7054

[KnnNike]

It went out the window during the previous administration and getting ready to do under the current administration.

All of the anti transit arguments are not specific to Detroit,they have applied to every city that has implemented transit options.

All I am saying is you are wasting time and energy fighting that battle,you need to be using the same time and energy looking at other cities that already overcame those hurdles.

They already fought those battles and implemented systems,so what they did worked.

The Q line was implemented under the Obama administration,it did not need regional support,the city can implement its own plan on its own if it has the support,it does not need regional support.

It makes it easier with regional support,but it can always sow the seeds and the rest will latch on,but you will never get nowhere looking for reasons as to why you cannot do it.

Stop looking at the past and concentrate on the future,new city,new day.

There is nothing standing in the way of a few city residents forming a 501c transit intuitive and receiving fed funds in order to work out the details.

That is the first step,when you get the details you have a plan to sell and something to go off of in order to get the next step.

Sitting around waiting for somebody to drop a bunch of rail cars on the city is not going to happen,it’s like anything else,you have to fight for it.

Pro transit is pro transit everywhere else in the country,they can be reached out to for guidance,it’s not like you are reinventing the wheel,one just needs to quit pissing around talking about it and just do it.

Going at it by using the green angle comes at a heavy price at this time,there is a city in California that touts the largest green public transit system in the world,but they also have over 60,000 homeless in the streets,so it came at a price.

It will not be easy,it never is.

I don't think Detroit *can* do it on its own, for the simple fact that it costs a lot of money. Detroit is not like other cities...it has far more poor people, and one of the highest tax rates in the country.

To pay for better public transit will require asking for more money from the citizenry...and I don't think there are enough people left in the city proper who have money to give.

[EastsideAl]

Thank you for stating the important part…”who would pay for it?”

All for moving debates forward with the facts that have been raised being brought forward for consideration I will offer a lower cost alternative to Rail. Trackless Trams. With the big 2 in town going so large in EVs it would be cool if they had interest in manufacturing Electric Trams and test bedding them here in Detroit. These things show promise simply because you get the benefits of light rail at a fraction of the cost.

https://theconversation.com/why-trac...ht-rail-103690

Like the streetcars, we actually had basically these at one time on the Grand River and Crosstown routes. Despite apparent cost savings and being popular with riders, the city's DSR [[now D-DOT), with their usual golden foresight, tore the trolley-coaches out anyway.
http://www.detroittransithistory.inf...tos1950sB.html

[bust]

I don't think Detroit *can* do it on its own, for the simple fact that it costs a lot of money. Detroit is not like other cities...it has far more poor people, and one of the highest tax rates in the country.

To pay for better public transit will require asking for more money from the citizenry...and I don't think there are enough people left in the city proper who have money to give.

Transit benefits the entire region, even the state, and less directly, the country, not just the city-- at least when it's done right.
It should be paid for by the entire region, with support from the state and the feds, not just the city-- likewise.

[ShadowSoarer]

According to Crain's Detroit, the QLine service to resume week of Sept. 27, free for rest of year.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/transp...down-last-year

[401don]

According to Crain's Detroit, the QLine service to resume week of Sept. 27, free for rest of year.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/transp...down-last-year

Not sure if this is a good idea. You give people something for free long enough it will be hard convincing them it's worth paying for and not an entitlement. Fare evasion is already a big problem.

[renf]

I am surprised that the Q line will not resume service until the end of
September. Is this basically a covid issue or something else? The cars
have been running frequently on Woodward for six months or more.

[ShadowSoarer]

I am surprised that the Q line will not resume service until the end of
September. Is this basically a covid issue or something else? The cars
have been running frequently on Woodward for six months or more.

They have been running tests/training, I think it is a combination of Covid, ridership, and contract. Which is odd considering cities like Milwaukee, Denver, and Phoenix have had light rails operating throughout the pandemic [[with riders).

This is an older article:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...er/6753754002/

[Satiricalivory]

No city does transit funding on it's own, that's not how transit works anywhere.

[Rocket]

Did the QLine finally go under?

Their phones are shut off.
https://www.facebook.com/QLineDetroit/


Does anyone know what the May 2019 - Apr 2020 ridership numbers? I read somewhere that although a private entity, they are required submit ridership numbers at least once a year.


'18 was 3,200, with 40% of riders paying, enough to cover 10% of exp.

2019 ?

2020 ? [useless of course, thanks to covid)

[Jason]

When the money was raised to build the QLine they also raised money to operate it. Even with things going worse than initially planned, they're not out of money yet. They're about to restart service soon.

Annual ridership:

2017 - 719,611
2018 - 1,192,110
2019 - 1,169,213

Average Weekday - Saturday - Sunday ridership:

2017 - 5,049 - 5,085 - 5,141
2018 - 3,274 - 3,279 - 3,274
2019 - 3,305 - 3,912 - 2,116


The way the reporting works, there's a category each for local, state, and federal funding. And then there's a category "Fares and Directly Generated" which is everything from the system itself [[fares, advertising, anything else), so their fares and their private funding are combined together in the reporting.


I would also add that they were originally planning for 5,000 weekday riders. If with their new operator they're able to finally provide reliable service, I think they could get closer to their original estimate.

[Rocket]

Yeah, the estimated 5,000 - 7,000 riders a day was pie in the sky. We all knew that.

Can you check that 3,305 number again? Is that a typo?

I ask because 1,169,213 is less than 1,192,110

Should the 2019 number be 3,205? Or perhaps they didn't include some days when it was out of service in their calculation?

Anyway, I sure hope it can do better one day. I read the other day that even when it was in operation it only recovered 10% of it's expenses.

Hopefully the new management can do something about the timeliness of the cars, but I'm not sure they will be able to do much about the 8.4 mph average speed.

[Hermod]

Not sure if this is a good idea. You give people something for free long enough it will be hard convincing them it's worth paying for and not an entitlement. Fare evasion is already a big problem.

Read as history of trolley line development. In the 19th century, the transit companies began opeating and to build traffic would offere a couple of weeks of free rides. When they began to charge fares, there were serious riots in several cities. I am not sure we are more civilized now.

[Danny]

Memphis, TN. trolley system is still up and running. I even been on one in 2019.

[renf]

Once again today, I went to see the Tigers but parked at Mack and Woodward. On the walk down to the game and back, three Q line
cars passed making all the stops. I suppose that this is to train the street car operators. We are sure going to have very well trained operators when
the Q line opens for real passengers at the end of September.

[Lowell]

Qline testing on Woodward near the DIA shot from my car at a stoplight. You can read the sign flashing "Out of [Service]".

[bartocktoo]

Nobody is forcing you to take public transportation. A world class metro provides transportation options. A viable alternative to the automobile to promote denser development. I even speculate if an elevated rapid transit went from Detroit to Grosse Pointe, then Grosse Pointe, in the vicinity of the transit stops, would start to develop like the suburbs of Washington D.C., Los Angeles, Atlanta, Boston, etc. Bring a transfusion to a set of communities that is closing schools.

Completely agree.

[bust]

Completely agree.

Me too,
Grosse Pointer,
Another exception.
What's the better future?
I'm an optimist, for ours.

[Jason]

Yeah, the estimated 5,000 - 7,000 riders a day was pie in the sky. We all knew that.

Can you check that 3,305 number again? Is that a typo?

I ask because 1,169,213 is less than 1,192,110

Should the 2019 number be 3,205? Or perhaps they didn't include some days when it was out of service in their calculation?

Anyway, I sure hope it can do better one day. I read the other day that even when it was in operation it only recovered 10% of it's expenses.

Hopefully the new management can do something about the timeliness of the cars, but I'm not sure they will be able to do much about the 8.4 mph average speed.

The numbers are all correct. If you look at the "column" for Saturday and Sunday ridership you can see that Sunday dropped off quite a bit. Saturday ridership went up a bit but not enough to make up the difference.

It could just be an anomaly. If there are fewer events [[concerts, sports, etc.) then there would be less ridership, and every year doesn't have the exact same amount of events. Or maybe the weather was worse or something.

The problem though is for any transit system, for the first few years you expect to see increases every year. Once it's open it takes time for people to start working the new service into their routines, and as they do the numbers should be going up not down.

I definitely think they can improve their service, even if it's not physically possible for it to really be truly good. I also hope that their farebox recovery goes up. Mainly because I want it to stay privately funded. There are a lot of people out there that view transit as a welfare system, and that for every penny that's not spent on buses you're killing grandma. I completely disagree, I think transit is about making a comprehensive system that moves everyone, and some kinds of trips are best served by niche services. But the QLine doesn't provide unique niche service, it's a perfect duplication of the bus service, except it's worse at it in every way except for having a smoother ride. I don't want the city to take it over and to be paying for it. And I think the private real estate interests want to keep it running for the same reasons they built it in the first place and would cough up the money if the city refused to take it.

[stasu1213]

The QLine was set up for failure even before the pandemic. There are those entities in Detroit that don't want to see a successful alternative way of getting around Michigan especially Detroit. The Qline was a threat for if it was successful it could had gotten the ball rolling for other Qlines around the city and possibly the surrounding suburbs. The People Mover could had extended to 8 mile road had it not been elevated and plans not gotten tangled up in the political red tape of the Detroit. The Governor said fix the dawn road but hadn't made an issue of the lack of decent mass transportation for Michigan.

[casscorridor]

They have been running tests/training, I think it is a combination of Covid, ridership, and contract. Which is odd considering cities like Milwaukee, Denver, and Phoenix have had light rails operating throughout the pandemic [[with riders).

This is an older article:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...er/6753754002/

Proof enough that QLine was never about providing transportation but rather a vanity project to sell more real estate.

This was clear from the start, when Gilbert insisted upon its idiotic curbside tracks and many extra stations, rendering it slow and unreliable. The fact that a bus is a faster and more efficient way to travel from New Center to Downtown is all you need to know.

[Jason]

They definitely were not trying to sabotage transit or provide bad service. It's just that Dan Gilbert rode Portland's famous streetcar, and so it's based on that.

But while the Portland Streetcar doesn't have the reliability issues of the QLine, its peak frequency is 15 minutes, and 20 minutes off peak, and does not have 24 hour service. So it ALSO has worse service [[ignoring covid) than Woodward's buses.

A bunch of streetcars and light rail lines have been built in North America and very few of them have turned out well. Urbanists, transit planners, and politicians are all very prone to fads, and there's also a shocking amount of ignorance about successful transit systems from other parts of the world.

[stasu1213]

Not sure if this is a good idea. You give people something for free long enough it will be hard convincing them it's worth paying for and not an entitlement. Fare evasion is already a big problem.

I think that it's a good idea if the business community in the area are flipping the bill. There need to be a growing confidence in riding the Qline again since it has been out of service since March 2020.