Voter Fraud in Detroit?

[ABetterDetroit]

They can’t even read let alone count. Problem is how do you weed out harvested and illegitimate votes and prove those are bad?
I would really like to see the whole thing redone and ONLY in person with proper ID. I think this angle would be fair and catch em
with their pants down! Are there really that many people brainwashed into thinking Trump is a bad guy? So bad anyone [[senile old man) is better?

A do-over using the data from the election and only use the voting method where your candidate might do better? Are we supposed to believe if mail ins favored the lying reality TV salesman and Biden won the election with the in-person that you wouldn’t all be screaming that mail in is really how the election should be run with the pandemic and all and that is how the do-over should be done? Give us a break.

The far right [[in this case) and the far left can equally threaten democracy. Look around the world, when either takes over permanently everything goes to absolute shit. Democracy is the best thing going by far. Lets try to keep it a while longer. A habitual liar running a cult of his own personality is not worth fucking up how we elect leaders forever.

[Zacha341]

Thumbs up for this! We'll need to watch the incoming administration as much as the out-going. Particularly as there can easily be a move to put forth all forms of policy and processes, excused or not vetted at the behest [[in this case) of repudiating all things resembling Trump, or judged to resemble.

I'm not particularly favoring the 100% winner-take-all position without critique or push-back - any less than was applied to the out-going administration.

The far right [[in this case) and the far left can equally threaten democracy. Look around the world, when either takes over permanently everything goes.... Democracy is the best thing going by far. Lets try to keep it a while longer.

[bust]

Thumbs up for this!

I also agree!

However, it's clear without a doubt Trump is far-right, and he coddles those who are um, let's say even far-righter, while Biden is a centrist whose instinct has always been to unify and seek bi-partisanship. In no way a mirror image, the reverse.

And Z, I appreciate your earlier thoughts. I hope you'll consider some responses.

It's not just Democrats whose economics have traditionally been grounded in a strong foundation of classical liberalism. It's the foundation of Republican economics too, maybe even more. For better and for worse it's been the core principle of American economics since our nation was founded. You probably know that but the way you presented it made it unclear.

Regarding your characterization of the "far left" detesting religion, be careful. That's been an effective rallying cry against them-- pushing the buttons of religious beliefs triggers emotion [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"), not those parts of our brain that put faith in facts. But the vast majority of the left does NOT detest religion. Many may not "religiously" follow a religion, but many do. And there are at least as many centrists, libertarians, and other right-wingers who don't either-- including several of our "founding fathers" [[many preferred the Ethical Society) and Trump [[though I hesitate to put him in the same sentence). Of course not all of them. Don't forget Biden has been a committed Christian his entire life.

At the risk of stepping further into that minefield, I'll do my best to characterize my own thoughts on religion, which I suggest are common among the left, and possibly even reflective some ways how the majority of us think here in Michigan and Detroit.

I deeply respect our right to practice religion. Any religion.
Equally important: our right to live free from the arbitrary constrictions of anyone else's religion.

For example, most controversially, I've never accidentally made a woman pregnant, but if I were in that situation I don't think I'd want her to have an abortion. Who would? Ok, some. But I don't believe it's a sin and I acknowledge there are cases when it's necessary or justified. And even if it's hard for me to imagine wanting that for myself [[um, I mean her), I'd never be so arrogant as to presume I know better than everyone else, especially not the pregnant woman [[THAT her). I could never support a law that prevented her from deciding herself what's best. That's pro-choice.

In other words, I refuse as strongly to impose my beliefs on others as I refuse to accept when anyone else attempts to impose theirs on us. Anything else may raise the concerns of even the most Republican, devoted Detroiters.

If someone believes abortion is a sin, that's her right, and I'd defend her right to refuse one. But if she tried to mandate every other woman do the same, I'd oppose. We should not impose our religious beliefs on others. Even more than classical liberalism, our liberty to be free from someone else's religion is a core principle of our nation since its start. Here in Detroit there may be just a tad of push back. [[Remember the thread complaining about the call to prayer in Hamtramck?)

So it follows... it's a person's right to believe we descend from Adam and Eve who were created by God at the dawn of the Universe 6000 years ago, that we descend from aliens, that there are innumerable Gods such as one with 8 arms and the head of an elephant, that we must never eat shrimp, that we must never eat meat, that we must never eat fish, the we must never cut our hair, that we must never drink alcohol, that we must never use fire thus electricity on the "holy day", that we must never wear v-neck shirts, that adulterers deserve to be publicly killed, or whatever. But that person does NOT have the right to mandate their beliefs on us.

I'm just hoping we Detroiters [[keeping this thread local) agree on that.

As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence? [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"???)

Maybe winning the lawsuits isn't the point:

Nessel: Trump election lawsuits aim to delegitimize Biden
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...den/114956510/

[oladub]

As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence?

Five poll workers and one employee of the City of Detroit signed affidavits alleging they witnessed election fraud. Are you suggesting that they are all liars? Why would the City of Detroit employee be risking his job opposing Detroit's legal councel who is paid to water down the allegations? Not related but did Detroit hire a Detroit resident as its legal councel?

The 6,000 vote Dominion voting machine glitch was also evidence that such problems happen. Dominion Voting Systems equipment [[is) used in 69 of Michigan’s 83 counties and dozens of states, along with third-party software from Election Source of Grand Rapids, which the GOP has claimed is used in 47 Michigan counties. Technically, this was not a 'glitch' as the official Dominion explanation is that the Antrim County Clerk failed to add an update. But I wonder if other clerks missed an update notice and how hard the Dominion update company worked and voting machine companies servicing Detroit worked to make sure all counties were onboard with updates. This would be a simple thing to look at.

There were also curious late at night vote dumps in Detroit which benefitted Biden. Since there are no demographic group that supported Biden by 92-99%, I'm curious how such lopsided clumps of votes could occur in Detroit. "You'll notice that after the massive 6:30am vote dump [[141258 Biden votes to 5968 Trump votes), nearly all swings in the counts came in multiples of around 5,500 at a time to benefit Biden. So of this late vote dump representing nearly 150,000 votes, Biden "received" a statistically impossible 96 percent.There was also an earlier [[11/4/2020 8:50:00Z) dump of around 60,000 votes that went 92 percent for Biden, as well as a later [[11/5/2020 13:34Z) one that was 99 percent."

[Meddle]

Why would the City of Detroit employee be risking his job opposing ...

I seem to remember a time when city employees [[with badges and guns) were stationed at Cobo intercepting ballot boxes for 'inspection' and only certain ones were allowed to pass.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence? [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"???)

Affidavits are evidence. Someone swore an oath to the trust. Dozens or hundreds of people. Affidavits about fraud. Affidavits about access to watch the count.

That's evidence. Not proof. But absolutely evidence.

Swearing under oath is serious. And I suspect for a City employee claiming election fraud -- it'll be the end of their employment.

Do you think their City supervisor is going to warmly accept their insubordination, when fighting Trump by 'any means necessary' is a Holy War? One that they hope will provide urban funding for their jobs?
[/quote]

[Vic01]

affidavits are evidence. Someone swore an oath to the trust. Dozens or hundreds of people. Affidavits about fraud. Affidavits about access to watch the count.

That's evidence. Not proof. But absolutely evidence.

Swearing under oath is serious. And i suspect for a city employee claiming election fraud -- it'll be the end of their employment.

Do you think their city supervisor is going to warmly accept their insubordination, when fighting trump by 'any means necessary' is a holy war? One that they hope will provide urban funding for their jobs?

[/quote]

Wesley,

With all due respect, affidavits aren't evidence, they are a sworn statement of opinion. This is from the 11-13 decision of Wayne County Circuit Judge Timothy Kenny.

"The judge cast doubt on the affidavits of several GOP poll challengers who were present during the absentee counting process, writing that they had not attended an Oct. 29 walk through of operations at TCF Center and "did not have a full understanding" of the process".
"some affidavits by poll challengers alleging unsecured ballots or too many ballots cast for Biden were "rife with speculation" and showed they knew little about the counting process". It's likely that folks with no training or orientation on the actual processes which are used every election [[not just this one) would be suspicious of what were routine activities. That's why the orientation was offered... but some folks didn't bother to attend? Hmmm, makes me wonder if they had preconceived ideas of what they wanted to "witness" and didn't want facts or education getting in the way.
I know that I'd respect their "opinion" a lot more if they'd had the orientation, likely the Judge would have also.

[Wesley Mouch]

With all due respect, affidavits aren't evidence, they are a sworn statement of opinion.

My understanding is that they may [[or may not) be evidence depending on the use. You have a point, but it wasn't my main point.

People, some of whom are putting their employment at risk, were willing to write a sworn statement.

The judge's comments were that 'SOME' of the affidavits weren't up to snuff and showed lack of full understanding.

And in the end he's ruled against the argument. Probably the right decision.

That doesn't mean that all the poll-watchers are fools and idiots, nor that they are all uninformed.

Proving a solid process from start to finish is, IMO, the responsibility of the city clerk, and I've yet to hear an argument of quality -- only arguments of bad intentions from the challengers.

In the end, I hope this focus on how this unusual pandemic vote went leads to a more audible and transparent voting process for the future.