Here's a Novel Idea: Let's Raise Taxes!

[Stosh]

Higher prices because of the additional tax will actually drive down business at these events as people hit a tipping point reducing revenues for the events, the restraunts, the hotels, the parking lots and the assumed additional $30Mil will actually be less because they used a static tax model that assuned peoiple would just pay the higher price.

Christ. You really need to learn how to use the quote function here, really.

You really think that the tipping point hasn't been reached yet? I think that people will, for the most part, still go there. It's not a deal breaker. And it's voluntary. Noone forces you to go to these games, or shows. I think they still will, if disposable income is there.

Actually a quarter is huge to the population that smokes which is the lowest income population in our society being taxed "once again" for their "sins".

That's their choice. It is, a free country, after all. No sympathy from me on this one.

The same tipping point arguments apply here as well. I have shifted mostly to Moosehead water bottles with tap water to avoid paying for bottled water. You may say this great because we get rid of the plastic in the landfills...but that is not the goal of the tax...it is to raise revenue...again based on a static model that doesn't assume people will change their behavior by it. How many jobs will be affecyted by the reduced buiness for the bottle water companies? They of course don't want to think about that.

People will buy it anyway. It won't cost a single job. It will just raise the price of water, where the profit margin is already so absurd it's not funny. Let them eat it. For what they do to the water table in some counties here, they deserve it.

This is the only one I don't understand. Is the original model for credits cash positive or not for the state? If it is, leave it alone, it is building an industry and is a model that would well be worth following for other industries including distribution and fulfillment where we might be able to use some of our illitearte population from the city and unskilled laborers who no longer have a manufacturing base to go to for a job.

It's cash positive. From no industry to a blooming industry, it's a no-brainer. Keep it as it is. Illitearte?

It appears that this hits the tipping point on the other side now: My first impression is that this takes a family on the brink and kick them over the edge so they end up needing even more assistance but I don't know enough about this

.


I suppose so. That's a point that some may debate, particularily on the conservative sites. The state earned income credit was designed to be similar to the federal earned income credit. Thing is, can we afford to do this?

• Close a number of business tax loopholes.
"Well, maybe this one will hurt, a little." and this encourages me to do business here how?

See the above circular logic. There's no win. Any time you cut taxes for business, you cut other people's throats, namely social services, cities, et al.

"Tell you what. how about a .5 sales tax on food? Think that's fair?" No

Tell me why.

[Novine]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

[MCP-001]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

Not quite, Novine.

State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm.

Now if you want to argue that increasing taxes don't adversely affect the economy, you can look at;

• Bill Clinton's "luxury tax" an boats back in the early 90's that decimated the shipbuilding industry.
• States with higher cigarette taxes [[i.e. Michigan & New York) that spured people going into neighboring states with lower taxes to purchase ciragettes.
• Or remember the "service tax" that Granholm tried to foist on us back in '07?

I can continue, but I believe that I made my point.

[kraig]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar). Just recently, under Granholm, the state income tax was increased to 4.3 percent. So, there's definitely been a raise in income tax since she's been in office.

[reddog289]

And if and when I quit smoking the state will be outta $1642.50 a year.So I can be around longer to pay more taxes.You can tax smokes all you want But with that its like sucking money from the dying and people who are gonna quit. If no one smoked who would the state hit up?I have lived through pretty much 4 govenors Blanchard let the roads go to hell , Engler let the looneys out that Milliken didn't and Jenny on the block came to town and sad to say has ticked me off from day one. Against my better judgement I voted for her. Lesser of the two evils. It might be because of the times that she is in my mind a crappy Gov, But as I see it she stinks I would pay to move her and her family back to Canada or Washington.

[reddog289]

As a side note on the bottled water Tax it ,put a deposit on it cause the bottles end up allover. Like the SWEET TEA cans.I must be getting old. Bitching about water and tea.

[crawford]

Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar). Just recently, under Granholm, the state income tax was increased to 4.3 percent. So, there's definitely been a raise in income tax since she's been in office.

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

[kraig]

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

That depends. Do you consider auto workers, teachers and nurses working class? If you go to a proportionate tax system, that's who would get hit first. The working class is the middle class. Whenever there's an increase in taxes, it's always the middle class that gets screwed. Besides, let's put it into perspective. The person making $20,000 is paying $860.00 in state taxes. The person making $200,000 is paying $8,600.00.

The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker. It strips away the motivation to do better. How are those medical school loans going to get paid back?

The real truth is that the state doesn't do any better with managing it's finances than the City of Detroit does. It's simply in a position to withhold money from its municipalities when it comes up short. Raising taxes won't alleviate bad management. Never has, never will.

[Novine]

"State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm."

Almost all of the increase in state spending has been from federal funds. Of the increases, almost all of it has been in corrections and health care. Most state departments have seen their funding drop. Take away those federal dollars and state funding has been flat or gone down in most areas.

"Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar)."

Not true. The tax cuts started under Engler. They didn't go to 4% until after Granholm had been in office for a couple of years. The sales tax went up in 1994 when Proposal A was approved.

"The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker."

That's a joke. The person making $200,000 a year could have their tax rate doubled and their quality of life would still be 100 times better than that of the fast food worker.

[kraig]

"State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm."

Almost all of the increase in state spending has been from federal funds. Of the increases, almost all of it has been in corrections and health care. Most state departments have seen their funding drop. Take away those federal dollars and state funding has been flat or gone down in most areas.

"Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar)."

Not true. The tax cuts started under Engler. They didn't go to 4% until after Granholm had been in office for a couple of years. The sales tax went up in 1994 when Proposal A was approved.

"The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker."

That's a joke. The person making $200,000 a year could have their tax rate doubled and their quality of life would still be 100 times better than that of the fast food worker.

Spoken like someone who's probably not making 200k a year. Do you have any idea what an MBA from U of M costs? Between student loans, federal income tax close to 40%, Social Security taking more than $20,000.00, Detroit property tax bill of $17,843.72, state income tax of 4.3% and City income tax of almost 3%. I watch my income disappear quick.

Good luck trying to tell those of us that actually have to foot the bill for everyone else that you're going to double our taxes. You might as well jump back behind that counter and dump some more fries. We're not going for that. I'm not getting anything for what I'm already paying.

[noggin]

"State spending has increased [[faster than the rate of inflation in some cases) during that time between Engler and Granholm."

Almost all of the increase in state spending has been from federal funds. Of the increases, almost all of it has been in corrections and health care. Most state departments have seen their funding drop. Take away those federal dollars and state funding has been flat or gone down in most areas.

"Under Engler, the state income tax went from 4.5 percent down to 4.0 percent [[the sales tax did go from four to six cents on the dollar)."

Not true. The tax cuts started under Engler. They didn't go to 4% until after Granholm had been in office for a couple of years. The sales tax went up in 1994 when Proposal A was approved.

"The problem with too much proportionate tax is that the quality of life for a doctor would soon be no better than the quality of life for a fast food worker."

That's a joke. The person making $200,000 a year could have their tax rate doubled and their quality of life would still be 100 times better than that of the fast food worker.

You are right. That person will move to Florida and still not pay it. Good thinking.

[MCP-001]

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And when you add in the fact that poor communities like Detroit and Pontiac have city income taxes, many poor folks actually pay a higher proportion of their incomes on taxes than those in places like Bloomfield Hills.

The McDonalds worker is paying a higher proportion than the auto executive. This obviously needs to change.

My old math teachers would LOVE to hear the rationale for this one.

Please explain how 0.0435X is NOT proportional?

[crawford]

My old math teachers would LOVE to hear the rationale for this one.

Please explain how 0.0435X is NOT proportional?

Reread my post.

The poor are concentrated in communities with city income taxes. The wealthy are concentrated in communities without city income taxes.

A Bloomfield Hills resident pays 4.35% in state & local

A Pontiac resident pays about 7% in state & local

[MCP-001]

Reread my post.

The poor are concentrated in communities with city income taxes. The wealthy are concentrated in communities without city income taxes.

A Bloomfield Hills resident pays 4.35% in state & local

A Pontiac resident pays about 7% in state & local

True, but I was basing it on this:

What I don't understand is why we have a flat income tax. It's really horribly anti-working class.

Why should someone making $20,000 pay the same proportion of their income on taxes as someone making $1,000,000? Terribly regressive.

And you are absolutely correct about local income taxes being regressive.

But my question here is why did local voters approve them in the first place?

[BShea]

Has anyone taken a line-by-line look at what state government funds?

Are my taxes going for cops, fire, roads, bridges, education and the basic safety nets?

Or is there a hornet's nest of waste that could be trimmed?

I haven't looked; curious if someone else has?

I know taxes are the price of civilization, but that assumes the government collecting them is spending them wisely ...

[MCP-001]

Has anyone taken a line-by-line look at what state government funds?

Are my taxes going for cops, fire, roads, bridges, education and the basic safety nets?

Or is there a hornet's nest of waste that could be trimmed?

I haven't looked; curious if someone else has?

I know taxes are the price of civilization, but that assumes the government collecting them is spending them wisely ...

Cops, yes.

Fire, no.

Roads & Bridges, yes.

Education, yes.

Basic "safety net", unfortunately.

Is there waste that can be trimmed, see above.

Much of that info can be found here:

http://www.senate.michigan.gov/sfa/

[ThaFuzz]

Has anyone taken a line-by-line look at what state government funds?

Hmm, sounds like a great story idea for a particular business-themed publication!

Are my taxes going for cops, fire, roads, bridges, education and the basic safety nets?

Unicorns.

Or is there a hornet's nest of waste that could be trimmed?

It's only waste when it's a pet project from the other side of the aisle.

I haven't looked; curious if someone else has?

Uh, shouldn't you have a basic overview knowledge of this? Since you're overseeing the publication of articles that often discuss the impact of taxes on business entities?

[Danny]

RAISE TAXES!!!

Wait a minute! This is America. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!