Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

[313WX]

BEST ROAD SYSTEM IN THE COUNTRY?! Are you insane? What Detroit are you referring to? The roads here are beyond AWFUL and are always littered with potholes, broken traffic lights and lack of signage.

First off, I said road *SYSTEM* [[as in grid pattern and road capacity), not conditions. There's a difference.

Second, you should get out more. It's hell trying to navigate through cities in other parts of the country because of the very narrow streets and the lack of a coherent street grid. And if you think signage is bad here, try driving in any sunbelt city and then get back to me. The conditions of roads can easily be improved if people stopped with the penny pinching around here, but you can't easily correct a fucked up road system.

[iheartthed]

Now if we're talking the actual metropolitan area as defined by the federal government, that still does not include Washtenaw County. The Metropolitan Statistical Area [[MSA) for Detroit, as defined by the government, is made up of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne Counties.

This really doesn't mean much. Detroit and Ann Arbor are part of the same CSA, which was created to clarify closely linked cities/region associations like Detroit/Ann Arbor that are not captured by MSA designations. San Francisco is also not part of the same MSA as Silicon Valley, for instance, but they are part of the same CSA.

[Bham1982]

This really doesn't mean much.

Yeah, "obviously" official metropolitan area designations don't "mean much" when the entire previous argument was dependent on the [[false) claim that U-M was actually in the Detroit metro area...

[iheartthed]

Yeah, "obviously" official metropolitan area designations don't "mean much" when the entire previous argument was dependent on the [[false) claim that U-M was actually in the Detroit metro area...

It is in the Detroit Metro area. It also was founded in Detroit. It seems extremely silly to me that anyone is denying that there are strong ties between the University of Michigan and Detroit.

Edit: The University of Michigan also owns property in Detroit and has a campus in neighboring Dearborn.

[313WX]

The US Census Bureau determines MSAs based on commuting patterns in / out of the core city of the region. Since so few people in the region commute into the city proper for work [[relative to other major cities in the US), we get extremely short changed in how our metro area is defined. They also dont account for people who live in close proximity to the core city but are outside the US.

Thus, to my point, it's an extremely flawed way to look at Metro Detroit. The wikipedia page below is more accurate...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit%E2%80%93Windsor

[Bham1982]

The US Census Bureau determines MSAs based on commuting patterns in / out of the core city of the region. Since so few people in the region commute into the city proper for work, we get short changed in how our metro area is defined. They also dont account for people who live in close proximity to the core city but are outside the US.

Thus, to my point, it's an extremely flawed way to look at Metro Detroit. The wikipedia page below is more accurate...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit%E2%80%93Windsor

You feel it's "extremely flawed" to rigorously apply the same standards to all metros to derive a common metric.

Rather, you prefer the "metric" of an editable Wikipedia narrative article, Yeah, that makes sense...

[313WX]

You feel it's "extremely flawed" to rigorously apply the same standards to all metros to derive a common metric.

The problem isn't with the way the Census measures things, but the fact that Michigan is so backwards ass in the way it does things.

[313WX]

OK, then name a DESTINATION [[what does this even mean?) that is 40 miles away from a Sunbelt city that is directly associated with that city.

What "standard"? What are you even talking about?

U of M is NOT in metro Detroit. Per the U.S. Census, Metro Detroit does not include Ann Arbor. No one in AA considers themselves to be "Detroit".

Atlanta

Newnan, GA - 40 Miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

Cartersville, GA - 40 miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

Athens, GA - 70 miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered a suburb)

Carrollton, GA - 50 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Houston

Galveston, TX - 50 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Conroe, TX - 40 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Dallas

Denton, TX - 40 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Nashville

Murfreesboro, TN - 35 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Miami

Pompano Beach, FL - 37 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Coral Springs, FL - 46 miles away from downtown [[considered a suburb)

Ask anyone from these aforementioned places and they'd proudly say they're from the core city.

Yet, Ann Arbor, a city that receives its electricity from *DETROIT* Edison, is in *DETROIT'S* television market, utilizes *DETROIT'S* airport is not a part of Detroit. Give me a fucking break.

It's not going to be the the lack of mass transit that kills Michigan's chances at landing Amazon, but the provincialism that permeates around here and the inability to enter the 21st century [[instead remaining stuck in the 1970s) that will do it.

[Gistok]

Yeah, I live in Ann Arbor and I don't know what the hell 313WX is talking about here. Absolutely no one considers Washtenaw County to be "Metro Detroit." Are Dexter and Chelsea suburbs of Detroit also?

The nine county area designated by the OMB as the Detroit–Warren–Ann Arbor Combined Statistical Area [[CSA) includes the Detroit–Warren–Dearborn MSA and the three additional counties of Genesee, Monroe, and Washtenaw [[which include the metropolitan areas of Flint, Monroe, and Ann Arbor, respectively). It had a population of 5,318,744 as of the 2010 census and covers an area of 5,814 square miles [[15,060 km²).

That's just the larger CSA... the smaller MSA [[Metropolitan Statistical Area) for other cities is larger than Detroits....

By U.S. Census Bureau standards, the population of the Atlanta region spreads across a metropolitan area of 8,376 square miles

Go check out the CSA and MSA sizes of other cities.... and you will find that some of these cover absurdly larger areas than Detroit does.

I live in SCS, and used to work in Ann Arbor... I always viewed it as a suburb.... a distant one... yes... but still a suburb. Cities like Atlanta, Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth and many other cities have ones even farther spread out than the Detroit example.

I know the people of Ann Arbor absolutely HATE being considered a suburb of Detroit... [[just ask former DYES member Citylover.. he used to foam at the mouth over the mere suggestion)... but in the national way of measuring... it is part of our greater metro area... going by the same unit of measurement that is used in other cities on the Amazon list.

[401don]

Regardless of how you define a metro area, I think it is reasonable for Amazon to consider the demographics within a 40 mile area of a city they are considering as one more factor in their decision making.

[iheartthed]

Ann Arbor's being excluded from the Detroit MSA has absolutely nothing to do with its distance from Detroit. You can drive from Ann Arbor to the DTW in 20 minutes. It is actually closer to the region's major airport than much of the Detroit MSA, and even parts of Detroit itself.

It is only by a technicality that it is not in the Detroit MSA. Because of the presence of the University of Michigan, not enough residents of Washtenaw County cross the county line to go to work. And because Wayne County is so much larger than Washtenaw, the percentage of Wayne County residents who commute to Washtenaw is not enough to meet the threshold to include it in the MSA definition.

To look at it another way, Romeo, MI is part of the Detroit MSA and is roughly the same distance from downtown as is Ann Arbor. I doubt there is much of a difference in the percentage of Romeo residents who commute to Detroit versus the percentage of Ann Arbor residents.

I live in SCS, and used to work in Ann Arbor... I always viewed it as a suburb.... a distant one... yes... but still a suburb. Cities like Atlanta, Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth and many other cities have ones even farther spread out than the Detroit example.

I know the people of Ann Arbor absolutely HATE being considered a suburb of Detroit... [[just ask former DYES member Citylover.. he used to foam at the mouth over the mere suggestion)... but in the national way of measuring... it is part of our greater metro area... going by the same unit of measurement that is used in other cities on the Amazon list.

Ann Arbor isn't a suburb but it IS part of Metro Detroit. But we're all pretty much splitting hairs here arguing about whether Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit.

[313WX]

Ann Arbor isn't a suburb but it IS part of Metro Detroit.

For all practical intents and purposes, a satellite city [[which is what I think would describe Ann Arbor) and a suburb aren't really any different. They're all places on the outskirt of the region's principal city.

[313WX]

This would sting, although it's not surprising.

Amazon Responds to Report That Boston is Frontrunner for 2nd Headquarters

http://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/...444050503.html

That said, this part of the article was interesting:

...A few years ago, Amazon executives discussed building a second headquarters in Toronto because two decades of rapid growth had left the company feeling constrained in Seattle. But global consumer chief Jeff Wilke objected and said the new location should be in the United States, the person said.

...Picking Boston would disappoint many Amazon employees with families hoping for a more suburban location like Austin, Texas, that offers affordable housing options beyond apartments and condominiums, said Brittain Ladd, a supply chain consultant who used to work for the company and still knows a lot of people there. What’s more, Austin is home to Whole Foods, recently acquired by Amazon for $13.7 billion.

“Texas is absolutely the best choice from the perspective of associates,” Ladd said. “Amazon associates are sick and tired of living in cities with high rents and congestion...”

[MicrosoftFan]

Did someone just say "sick of high rents"? Boy, do I have a city for you!

[SammyS]

Please not fuckin Texas.

[canuck]

It's either going to be Houston or Miami. Low lol.

[313WX]

Please not fuckin Texas.

I'd be OK with Texas and many of the other contenders landing this, just not Boston, DC or Denver [[places that are already overrated and overcrowded) or any Rust Belt city smaller than Detroot.

[emu steve]

I'd be OK with Texas and many of the other contenders landing this, just not Boston, DC or Denver [[places that are already overrated and overcrowded) or any Rust Belt city smaller than Detroot.

Every time I 're-analyze' the cities I come up with a different cluster of cities based on some factor or criterion.

I do see cities like BOS, D.C., etc. being of the same ilk. Pretty much they are similar.

Houston and Miami are subject to extreme weather events [[at least once every N number of years).

Then for a smaller city which would after some years become a 'bigger city' and that could be Austin, although I don't think they meet most of the criteria today, but would be very desirable for millennials.

P.S. Re: NoVa. Housing near Dulles is expensive, by Detroit's standards, but isn't too bad for a desirable area. However, if there is a substantial increase in demand for housing, then up would go costs. Maybe significantly.

I still say D.C.-area's big kicker is that Bezos has a house in D.C. and owns the Washington Post.

Probably a city he really likes... You'd think... [[I think of the Midwesterner who owns a winter home in Florida).

I'd think they are in the "Final Four."

[Bham1982]

Atlanta

Newnan, GA - 40 Miles away from downtown Atlanta [[considered an Atlanta suburb)

The only city you listed that has anything to do with what we're talking about is Athens, GA, home to University of Georgia.

No one from Athens, GA would say they're from Atlanta, and Athens isn't a part of the Atlanta metro. So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

[iheartthed]

The only city you listed that has anything to do with what we're talking about is Athens, GA, home to University of Georgia.

No one from Athens, GA would say they're from Atlanta, and Athens isn't a part of the Atlanta metro. So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

Athens is an hour and a half drive from Atlanta.

A better analogy is San Francisco to Stanford, which is about the same distance as Detroit to Ann Arbor.

[313WX]

So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

Now you're moving the goal post.

Please explain the logic [[or lack thereof) behind why a city 40 miles from Detroit can't be considered a part of Detroit's metro area, yet cities 40 miles from Atlanta [[Newnan and Cartersville) are considered part of their Metro areas? Why the different standards?

[dtowncitylover]

So, yeah, same deal as Ann Arbor and Detroit; separate metros and basically unrelated.

Is there some giant wall that I'm not seeing when I drive to work to Ann Arbor every day from the Woodward Corridor?

[aj3647]

This really doesn't mean much. Detroit and Ann Arbor are part of the same CSA, which was created to clarify closely linked cities/region associations like Detroit/Ann Arbor that are not captured by MSA designations. San Francisco is also not part of the same MSA as Silicon Valley, for instance, but they are part of the same CSA.

Yes, CSAs link MSAs, that does not mean that we should classify Ann Arbor as being either a suburb of Detroit or part of "Metro Detroit" as most people colloquially use the term. I'll give you an example: Washington DC and Baltimore are part of the same CSA just as Detroit and Ann Arbor are part of the same CSA.

Now, in the above example, which city is a suburb of the other? Would anyone in their right mind suggest that Baltimore is a DC suburb? Would someone from Baltimore say they are from DC interchangeably or vice versa? Would you, just as your own personal opinion, classify Baltimore as being part of Metropolitan DC?

Yes, Baltimore and DC have economic linkages that justify them being in the same CSA, that does not mean I would say that they are just one big entity. Baltimore is distinct enough of a city that most people would view it as standing on its own and not as a satellite city of DC.

I would also point out the Detroit CSA also includes Flint. Is Flint a suburb? Is it part of "Metro Detroit?" Come on now, where do you draw the line? Let's just go all-in and say that Traverse City is part of Metro Detroit too, I mean, why not? Maybe the promise of cherries will lure Amazon here.

[313WX]

lol at comparing Ann Arbor to Baltimore.

Please spare me. Ann Arbor is a part of Metro Detroit. I don't care what you call it [[suburb, satellite city, Mars, etc.), but the point is it's one of many towns that surrounds and is integrated with the core city of the region. That's that.

[iheartthed]

Yes, CSAs link MSAs, that does not mean that we should classify Ann Arbor as being either a suburb of Detroit or part of "Metro Detroit" as most people colloquially use the term. I'll give you an example: Washington DC and Baltimore are part of the same CSA just as Detroit and Ann Arbor are part of the same CSA.

Now, in the above example, which city is a suburb of the other? Would anyone in their right mind suggest that Baltimore is a DC suburb? Would someone from Baltimore say they are from DC interchangeably or vice versa? Would you, just as your own personal opinion, classify Baltimore as being part of Metropolitan DC?

Yes, Baltimore and DC have economic linkages that justify them being in the same CSA, that does not mean I would say that they are just one big entity. Baltimore is distinct enough of a city that most people would view it as standing on its own and not as a satellite city of DC.

I would also point out the Detroit CSA also includes Flint. Is Flint a suburb? Is it part of "Metro Detroit?" Come on now, where do you draw the line? Let's just go all-in and say that Traverse City is part of Metro Detroit too, I mean, why not? Maybe the promise of cherries will lure Amazon here.

Baltimore and D.C. are twin cities since they are both major cities in the same region. Because Ann Arbor is not a large city but is in the same metropolitan area of Detroit, it is a satellite of Detroit.