Detroit out-migration, in-migration, and the "other"

[Junjie]

The confederate flag came into existence specifically to represent radicals whose sole goal was to oppress an entire race of people who they felt was lesser than them.

Only those who are either clueless about the aforementioned fact or want to trivialize those within said race who faced oppression from these radicals and instead give these radicals a benefit of the doubt they don't deserve would feel otherwise.

Now, now. The civil war and origin of the Confederacy are complex historical topics. I'm sure it's not nearly that simp... oh.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."


These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.


We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.


This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.


On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.


The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.


Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.


We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

- South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession, December 24, 1860.

[bust]

OK, would you please reluctantly explain? I do understand that racists use the flag. But it isn't clear to me that its only a racist symbol. I would think it has other symbolism that might be benign. So please do.

Adding to the good explanations already provided, here is a short history of the confederate flag and its use as a racist symbol:

http://theweek.com/articles/562004/s...nfederate-flag

Summary:

1) The confederate flag in its design known today was used by [[some) members of the the confederate army during the war. And for more than 80 years after the war it was not often used except sometimes to honor the graves of confederate soldiers.
2) In 1948 it began to see more widespread use when Strom Thurmond adopted it for his "states rights party", which he formed to protest the imposition of civil rights laws in the South.
3) In 1956 Georgia incorporated it into their flag to protest the landmark "Brown vs. Board of Education" Supreme Court ruling that desegregated schools.
4) In 1961 George Wallace incorporated it into the Alabama flag to protest efforts to integrate the South.
5) In 1962 South Carolina raised the flag over their capitol for similar reasons.

And it has been used over and over again as a racist symbol since.

Snopes is a good neutral source for accurate information. Here's what they say:

http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confe...-flag-history/

If I have one complaint about Snopes it's that it seems they avoid some topics to make sure there is no question they're neutral. In this case, their history of the confederate flag says little about its use in the 20th Century.

What do you think is running through the heads of the people who hung confederate flags in front of their homes in Armada? The most generous benefit of the doubt barely reasonable to extend: maybe they're ignorant about its use and common identification as a racist symbol. But I saw the homes, they weren't under rocks, so chances are it's not that.

I support freedom of expression. Racists have the right to speak racist words and/or hang a racist flag on their private property. It is likewise my right to speak out against their racism. And you better believe I will. I encourage others who oppose racism to speak out against it too.

But I am tired of it.

[bust]

Just look at what happened this weekend in Charlottesville. It's long past time to stop making excuses and to stand strongly against this. If your neighbor waves this flag, confront him about it.









As to our President's recent emboldenment of such cretins, Charlottesville Mayor Mike Singer had this to say: "I do hope that he looks himself in the mirror and thinks very deeply about who he consorted with during his campaign."

I'm not counting on it.

[Zacha341]

Well the white supremacists aren't even trying to keep their identities hidden behind sheets with peep-holes anymore. Not that one was so naive to think they only came in one look!

Ghastly, brazen event! Dailymail of course is rarely inhibited re. photo coverage when something like this happens -- so now they have our attention -- or do they?!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-protest.html

[Bham1982]

Just look at what happened this weekend in Charlottesville. It's long past time to stop making excuses and to stand strongly against this. If your neighbor waves this flag, confront him about it.

This is who the U.S. elected. This is the Trump base. Congratulations, America, you officially suck!

Basically all the warnings about Trump prior to the election have come true. He's a racist idiot leading the dumbest, most loathsome Americans in a jihad against everything good about this country.

Obviously many who voted for him are decent people, but the hardcore ones; the ones who support Neo Nazis murdering Americans, are the real threat to this nation. It isn't immigrants, or liberals or socialists, or whatever made-up boogeyman. It's the Deplorables.

[Wesley Mouch]

First, thanks for those who send replies regarding allegations that the confederate flag was solely a racist instrument. I did not see them, but with Charlottesville in the news and this thread alive, I had the opportunity to see them.

Regardless of the flag's history, I agree that its in pretty bad taste these days to celebrate this flag. Even if you are a supporter of all things southern, it would be wise to respect the wishes of those who see it as a symbol of oppression.

The Snopes link doesn't seem to support calls for taking down the flag.

MYTH: The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.FACT: The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that vilify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.

Then they pay attention to the critics here:

If it is considered a symbol of slavery and white supremacy by many people today, in part that’s because it did indeed represent a government, military, and people who fought to preserve those aspects of their society.

Given the intolerance of critics of the flag, and their prejudicial lumping of all southern support into the racist basket, it seems wise and polite to step back from the argument and just let the flag stick around in museums.

Now off to read about Charlottesville and the mess there, hoping to find charity on both sides beyond the evil and self-serving thoughts of some.

[Junjie]

...

Given the intolerance of critics of the flag, and their prejudicial lumping of all southern support into the racist basket, it seems wise and polite to step back from the argument and just let the flag stick around in museums.

...

Wesley, no one is saying that only racists fly the Confederate battle flag [[battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia). They're saying that the Confederate battle flag represents an army that fought to establish a nation based on white supremacy and the slavery of African-Americans. This is a historical fact, freely admitted at the time by every southern state government.

So what, exactly, are people flying such a flag trying to communicate? Either they support the evil which it was created to represent, or they are deeply ignorant of the symbols they chose to represent themselves. It's hardly "intolerance" to oppose white supremacy, or to criticize people who are so ignorant that they inadvertently display support for white supremacy.

If these folks are so into their heritage, why don't they fly the state flags of the southern states they are from? Why is it always a battle flag from a war fought to defend slavery? We know the answer. For many, and probably most, it's code for their support for an evil that is still with us. And now the evil doesn't need to speak in code any more.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Wesley, no one is saying that only racists fly the Confederate battle flag [[battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia). They're saying that the Confederate battle flag represents an army that fought to establish a nation based on white supremacy and the slavery of African-Americans. This is a historical fact, freely admitted at the time by every southern state government.

So what, exactly, are people flying such a flag trying to communicate? Either they support the evil which it was created to represent, or they are deeply ignorant of the symbols they chose to represent themselves. It's hardly "intolerance" to oppose white supremacy, or to criticize people who are so ignorant that they inadvertently display support for white supremacy.

If these folks are so into their heritage, why don't they fly the state flags of the southern states they are from? Why is it always a battle flag from a war fought to defend slavery? We know the answer. For many, and probably most, it's code for their support for an evil that is still with us. And now the evil doesn't need to speak in code any more.

What he said ^^^

Those two flags belong together, in the dustbin of history. There is a reason why they are being paraded around together.

[bust]

Almost no one who hangs a confederate flag is only inadvertently supporting white supremacy. They're aware what message they're sending. Sure, they only fly it to celebrate "southern culture". Wink wink.

Maybe this analogy will help. A rainbow could just be a rainbow. But how many who hang a rainbow flag don't intend to communicate identification with or support of the gay community?

Everyone knows what it means.

Even if you don't know enough about the civil war. Or if you've been fooled by white supremacist revisionist history. Even if you're unaware that racist southern politicians like Strom Thurmond and George Wallace led the effort to bring back the confederate symbol and add it to state flags in protest of the civil rights movement... You know the confederate flag is a symbol of racism because of he overwhelming evidence racists use it as perhaps the most popular symbol of white supremacy.

And unlike the rainbow flag, which sends purely a positive message of inclusion, the confederate flag is not just a symbol of support and identification. It communicates a direct affront against a large part of our population.

Really, how many do you think do this innocently?

[Hermod]

A little history

http://www.charlesapple.com/uploads/...erateFlags.jpg

[ABetterDetroit]

Almost no one who hangs a confederate flag is only inadvertently supporting white supremacy. They're aware what message they're sending. Sure, they only fly it to celebrate "southern culture". Wink wink.

Maybe this analogy will help. A rainbow could just be a rainbow. But how many who hang a rainbow flag don't intend to communicate identification with or support of the gay community?

Everyone knows what it means.

Even if you don't know enough about the civil war. Or if you've been fooled by white supremacist revisionist history. Even if you're unaware that racist southern politicians like Strom Thurmond and George Wallace led the effort to bring back the confederate symbol and add it to state flags in protest of the civil rights movement... You know the confederate flag is a symbol of racism because of he overwhelming evidence racists use it as perhaps the most popular symbol of white supremacy.

And unlike the rainbow flag, which sends purely a positive message of inclusion, the confederate flag is not just a symbol of support and identification. It communicates a direct affront against a large part of our population.

Really, how many do you think do this innocently?

None.

Great Post with a excellent analogy.

Another would be nobody flys the nazi flag 'in support of their German heritage'. Everyone knows that flag is in support of hate, racial purity plus murder and genocide to achieve it.

[bust]

The Snopes link doesn't seem to support calls for taking down the flag.

Wesley, did you totally misread the Snopes article or are you being disingenuous?

You did not quote Snopes, you quoted an article called "Truth about Confederate History" the Snopes article disproves piece by piece.

Here is the first paragraph of the Snopes article:

"Misinformation about the antebellum South, the Civil War, and the Confederate flag is rife on the Internet. Perhaps nowhere more so than in a widespread and ironically titled “Truth about Confederate History” article."

Your quote is from that article.

Perhaps you should revisit the link and read the article again. You got it totally wrong.

[O3H]

How easily people forget Michigan is an agricultural GIANT in America, and someone has to pick all those crops [[plural). It sure as hell isn't the native long time residents of the state.
Michigan is more than Detroit,
always has been, always will be.
We have the water for irrigation.

[Jimaz]

Wesley, did you totally misread the Snopes article or are you being disingenuous?...

You got it totally wrong.

You're too kind.

Wesley never admits to "making mistakes" until he's caught red-handed. His "mistakes" are far more frequent than even that.

Googling his moniker will indicate his true intentions.

[middetres]

Detroit is historically a city of immigrants foreign and domestic. The Great Migration from the south and European migration to Detroit filled Detroit until it was bursting at the seams. I believe embracing immigration is in Detroit's best interest for long-term growth.

There are 3 historic Polish parishes within blocks of each other along Canfield from I-75 to St. Aubin. Nearby Chene Street is virtually open prairie. Why not create a public/private partnership with the State, City, Archdiocese and Detroit Polish community to build up that area as a magnet/incubator for new Polish immigration. The cultural anchors are already there but woefully underutilized. Welcome centers can serve as a one-stop shops for new arrivals settling into their new homes.

I think this model can be replicated throughout the city with immigrant populations coming from the world over.

As these populations assimilate and prosper they move on to more integrated, diverse neighborhoods and open up room in the incubator neighborhoods for continued new immigration.

[Wesley Mouch]

Wesley, did you totally misread the Snopes article or are you being disingenuous?

Total misread.

You did not quote Snopes, you quoted an article called "Truth about Confederate History" the Snopes article disproves piece by piece.

I was a little surprised as well that Snopes was so clear. But it was 100% my mistake.

Perhaps you should revisit the link and read the article again. You got it totally wrong.

I did. And thanks again.

Confirmation bias, its called.

Nonetheless, I think there is room to be charitable to those who fly the flag.

So what, exactly, are people flying such a flag trying to communicate? Either they support the evil which it was created to represent, or they are deeply ignorant of the symbols they chose to represent themselves.

There are no other interpretations? I think a lot of red-necks just like their out-group. [[And of course some of them are racists -- probably more than racist university professors, but not all in either case.)

Although I clearly am capable of making mistakes, I maintain my general point. I think we should be charitable to others -- especially as regards the contents of their minds. A lot of us just can't see how 'the other' can think differently. And we impute intentions and evil to them. Does Ms. DeVos really want to consign children to sub-standard education? Or does she just have different, but well-intentioned, beliefs? Yet we see her pilloried every day in the media. Does Bernie Sanders really want to create a Stalinist socialist state? No, he just believes that society needs a lot more socialism in everyone's interest. I disagree with him, but I don't think he really wants re-education camps nor a Cultural Revolution. We just disagree.

Let's all be just a bit more charitable towards the independent and different thoughts of others.

But also feel free to beat me up for this mistake. It'll be good fun. And nobody thinks a little more Mouchian humility would hurt.

[Danny]

Did it happen - perhaps - but it's also important to look at a city through the lense of time. Detroit is 300 years old.

You had all the settlers and their views from 1701-1801, indigenous and settlers.

You had 1801-1901, the immigrants pouring in settling in their respective areas.

1901-1950, you had $5/day wages and mass immigration from everywhere.

From 1950-1970, you had the tipping point and the exodus of select demographic populations.

From 1970-2010 you had the mass exodus of select demographic groups and a continued exodus of others.

From 2014- present you have the influx of a demographic group.

The point being, Detroit's history is much more than the last 40-50 years at "defining culture" - culture spans decades/generations. These past decades will definitely have sizable contributions to Detroit's history but it is a fallacy to think it represents the totality of Detroit's history. Each Detroiter is merely the sum of their own lives experiences and shouldn't be extrapolated to speak for the city as a whole. That we're losing or gaining our heritage.

As such, each new resident brings their own perspective to what makes Detroit great and how it is/can be. A block of people moving onto Seminole in 1920 vs 1960 vs 2000 vs 2020 will all have different ideas of what a "Detroiter" is and that's okay.

Detroit in 2055 could be 40% Asian or 40% Syrian or 40% Hondurian. That's okay. Think that's farfetched? Imagine what the residents in 1690 thought it would look like in 40 years? Imagine what the residents in 1900 thought it would look like in 1940? Imagine what the people in 1940 thought it would look like it would in 1980. Compare 1980 to 2020 when we get there in five years.

The bad news is things can rapidly deteriorate in a generation or two but they can also rebound in a generation or two. That should be the hope that keeps us all moving that this can be the greatest city in the world.

Actually Detroit's population in 2055 would be 40% white, 37% black, 20% Hispanic and 2.9% other. Now that's pure diversity, just like Chicago. And the Census 2050 numbers from Detroit is increasing but a minimum speed about 902,754.

[O3H]

NOT so sure Detroit population will rise all that quickly.
The overall cost of living isn't exactly wonderful just yet.

Cost of Living in Detroit, MI is

3% lower
than the National Average

[SammyS]

NOT so sure Detroit population will rise all that quickly.
The overall cost of living isn't exactly wonderful just yet.

Cost of Living in Detroit, MI is

3% lower
than the National Average

Does that stat consider rent or mortgage payment? Considering it’s the single largest component of expenditure, then that stat is hard to believe.

Consider greater downtown areas in other cities. Are their rents averaging $1.50-$2.00/sqft? Are they selling for $200-$300/ sqft? I don’t know.

Of course the further you move out, the home prices and subsequent rents plummet rapidly. Not sure if that’s the case, or as abrupt, elsewhere.

[Hypestyles]

i guess we'll see what happens. but better things need to happen at the public policy level to create an atmosphere for better city-centric jobs and small businesses to grow within the city boundaries. Services need to improve drastically for city residents, as does the quality and availability of public schools.

[aj3647]

Just look at what happened this weekend in Charlottesville. It's long past time to stop making excuses and to stand strongly against this. If your neighbor waves this flag, confront him about it.

Has anyone else ever noticed that every white person who flies the Confederate flag looks like some kind of deformed in-bred mutant? Seriously these white guys look like Emil from Robocop after he drove into the tank of toxic waste. Anyone remember that scene?



Just photoshop a Confederate flag in his mutated hand and he'd fit right in at any MAGA rally.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Not to take away from your point, but put on a black mask and you've got some of the ANTIFA types show here too! ------

[aj3647]

^^^ Not to take away from your point, but put on a black mask and you've got some of the ANTIFA types show here too! ------

How would you know what they look like if they are wearing masks? I don't see a lot of ANTIFA wearing wife beaters when they weigh 300+ pounds. The MAGA crowd in the pictures above looks like they don't have a complete set of human teeth between the lot of them. They look like they ate a steady diet of paint chips as kids.