Michigan transit tax Rejected [MI Prop 15-1]

[Honky Tonk]

So your suggestion is that voters REALLY wanted a new $1B+ corporate tax hike? Is that likely to come from either the House/Senate or the Governor?

Well it sure as hell isn't coming from me either.

[Lowell]

What should legislature do?
1. Users pay. Period. Hike taxes on fuel and vehicle registrations by weight.
2. Cut truck weight limits to Federal standard of 80 tons from current nation-leading 164. Yeah I know the per axle argument but that does not apply to bridge damage. This move will be very popular and massage support for having to pay more.
3. Require strict warrantees on all construction.

Will a TEA party-dominated legislature enact a tax hike? No. So invest in tire shops and divest in tourism.

[professorscott]

That's too simple, so it won't happen.

It's also not a long term fix. The gas tax rate hasn't changed; driving is down; mileage is increasing. The amount of money you can capture from such a tax is diminishing year over year, and the more you defer maintenance [[for roads or your house or anything else) the more things break down and become more expensive to eventually fix.

Since there aren't toll roads, which is a tool neighboring states use in a big way to relieve the pressure of having to maintain so many free ones, something has to change, and it isn't going to be simple. The essential problem is people are content to wait for the nonexistent road fairy to come along and fix all the roads without having to spend any money. We've let the transportation infrastructure go to hell for decades; now there's the piper to pay, and you can put him off for a little while but not forever.

[BankruptcyGuy]

What should legislature do?
1. Users pay. Period. Hike taxes on fuel and vehicle registrations by weight.
2. Cut truck weight limits to Federal standard of 80 tons from current nation-leading 164. Yeah I know the per axle argument but that does not apply to bridge damage. This move will be very popular and massage support for having to pay more.
3. Require strict warrantees on all construction.

Will a TEA party-dominated legislature enact a tax hike? No. So invest in tire shops and divest in tourism.

Agree on 2 and 3. I think the open question is: can enough money be raised by suggestion 1 to actually do the necessary work.

[Honky Tonk]

It's also not a long term fix. The gas tax rate hasn't changed; driving is down; mileage is increasing. The amount of money you can capture from such a tax is diminishing year over year, and the more you defer maintenance [[for roads or your house or anything else) the more things break down and become more expensive to eventually fix.

Since there aren't toll roads, which is a tool neighboring states use in a big way to relieve the pressure of having to maintain so many free ones, something has to change, and it isn't going to be simple. The essential problem is people are content to wait for the nonexistent road fairy to come along and fix all the roads without having to spend any money. We've let the transportation infrastructure go to hell for decades; now there's the piper to pay, and you can put him off for a little while but not forever.

We've also waited for the Corporate Tax Break Fairy to come along and create jobs, jobs, jobs, and that hasn't happened either. Maybe it's time to ask everyone to pay their fair share and not just the middle-class schmuck trying to eek out a living? Who's fault is it that for the past 20 years, tax revenue from the pump wasn't applied effectively, mine? My jobs seems to be "pay the piper, kid".

[BankruptcyGuy]

We've also waited for the Corporate Tax Break Fairy to come along and create jobs, jobs, jobs, and that hasn't happened either. Maybe it's time to ask everyone to pay their fair share and not just the middle-class schmuck trying to eek out a living? Who's fault is it that for the past 20 years, tax revenue from the pump wasn't applied effectively, mine? My jobs seems to be "pay the piper, kid".

You don't think that the economy in SE MI has improved, or you don't think there is a correlation?

[313WX]

You don't think that the economy in SE MI has improved, or you don't think there is a correlation?

Things probably would have improved from the absolute bottom we hit without the tax cuts. Most of the jobs which have returned have been in the Auto Industry which was bailed out by the federal government and returning back to profitability before Snyder repealed the MBT.

Even so, the "improvements" have been marginal at best. We still have a long ways to go before returning back to the levels we were at in 2007, let alone back to the "money growing on trees" late 1990s. It was advertised that the repeal of the MBT would not only lead to the creation of a notable number of non-auto related jobs, but that it would expedite our return to the good ol days. Instead, the "recovery" continues to be at the same snails pace that it was under Granholm and there has been no notable diversification of the economy, almost 5 years later.

[Gpwrangler]

What should legislature do?
1. Users pay. Period. Hike taxes on fuel and vehicle registrations by weight.
2. Cut truck weight limits to Federal standard of 80 tons from current nation-leading 164. Yeah I know the per axle argument but that does not apply to bridge damage. This move will be very popular and massage support for having to pay more.
3. Require strict warrantees on all construction.

Will a TEA party-dominated legislature enact a tax hike? No. So invest in tire shops and divest in tourism.

Collect mileage, weight, and speed data directly from vehicles. You drive, you pay.

[bailey]

Collect mileage, weight, and speed data directly from vehicles. You drive, you pay.

...but what happens when your soon to be ex's lawyer subpoenas that black box to find out where you actually were on all those late nights at the office? Or when some guy puts instructions on youtube on how to hack the box to make your overloaded, long haul semi appear to the collection system as a Smart fourtwo that never leaves the neighborhood?

Increasing the gas tax, lowering weight limits, and jacking up tag fees already accomplishes the "you drive you pay" without the invasion of privacy required by black box data collection. I don't see why everyone wants to over think this.

Don't want to pay? Take the bus.

[Lowell]

Agree on 2 and 3. I think the open question is: can enough money be raised by suggestion 1 to actually do the necessary work.

Raise it until it does.

[sumas]

Collect mileage, weight, and speed data directly from vehicles. You drive, you pay.

Have to agree. We do not drive much. Most of what I need is in walking distance. A fill up for our van lasts about 2 months. I do not object to tax increases but that was the dumbest bill /proposal I have ever seen. Vote idiots out.

[Honky Tonk]

You don't think that the economy in SE MI has improved, or you don't think there is a correlation?

I think whatever the powers that be are doing, isn't working. The solution seems to be pass the buck to what residents that are left. That gets more of them thinking about greener pastures. I'm glad Proposal None was defeated. It reeked with scam. The worst part was it couldn't be undone. Every time there's a tax increase proposal, it's supposed to resolve some dire need, then gets utilized elsewhere.

[Gpwrangler]

...but what happens when your soon to be ex's lawyer subpoenas that black box to find out where you actually were on all those late nights at the office? Or when some guy puts instructions on youtube on how to hack the box to make your overloaded, long haul semi appear to the collection system as a Smart fourtwo that never leaves the neighborhood?

Increasing the gas tax, lowering weight limits, and jacking up tag fees already accomplishes the "you drive you pay" without the invasion of privacy required by black box data collection. I don't see why everyone wants to over think this.

Don't want to pay? Take the bus.

No less private than driving a registered tagged vehicle on public roads. I'm not worried.

[Wheels]

Reform the Michigan No-Fault law and use the Billions in reserve to fix the roads.

Ban advertising for ambulance chasing lawyers and Insurance will go down!

[Wesley Mouch]

Things probably would have improved from the absolute bottom we hit without the tax cuts. Most of the jobs which have returned have been in the Auto Industry which was bailed out by the federal government and returning back to profitability before Snyder repealed the MBT.

Even so, the "improvements" have been marginal at best. We still have a long ways to go before returning back to the levels we were at in 2007, let alone back to the "money growing on trees" late 1990s. It was advertised that the repeal of the MBT would not only lead to the creation of a notable number of non-auto related jobs, but that it would expedite our return to the good ol days. Instead, the "recovery" continues to be at the same snails pace that it was under Granholm and there has been no notable diversification of the economy, almost 5 years later.

In the last 5-8 years, the Michigan, Detroit, American, European, and world economy has been turbulent. Reforming Michigan taxation was a wise action. Its not reasonable to think that Michigan has benefitted. But its also not the only problem we have here.

Your argument that Snyder is bad because one single tax reform didn't bring blooming flowers in 5 minutes is weak. And frankly its self-serving. It took decades to create our economic problems. It'll take even longer to dig out. Don't expect results overnight -- meaning in 5-10 years. I don't think most of us will live to see Michigan back on top again. But if we were to have severe drought in the southwestern US...

[Dan Wesson]

So your suggestion is that voters REALLY wanted a new $1B+ corporate tax hike? Is that likely to come from either the House/Senate or the Governor?

Noooooooo

Go back in time a few years.

That corporate rate cut is now history, it's a done deal.

And second question, yes.

[bailey]

No less private than driving a registered tagged vehicle on public roads. I'm not worried.

It's a hell of a lot more private than having a tracking device monitoring my driving at all times and reporting those results in real time to calculate my user fees.

I know we have EDRs in cars now. and leaving out the issues with privacy in general... if the state had unfettered access to them it's fairly easy for the state to then mine the data. What's stopping them from checking to see if I was speeding at any point and send along a few tickets with the road fee? It's not like checking time stamps, location, and miles traveled would at all difficult. nor would pulling the other diagnostic data like if I was wearing my seat-belt when I drove up the corner store. Cha-ching! ticket! Then what's next? Will BOLOs go out to the local constabulary if the data shows my car has been at a bar for too long?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The only spin I'm seeing is a governor FAR out-of-touch with the populace.

He truly thought he had a big chance of winning this bullshit. Went around the country revealing his true obsession, bringing his saviorhood to the masses beyond Michigan. Uh-huh.

Now that they all know he's not a prophet...heh...and is capable of creating HISTORIC losses in the polls...I'm hoping he just goes back to private life. Soon.


I was SO happy our flight was early last night, got to the poll just before they closed...was the 311th voter and had the precinct to myself at first. As I was walking out, there was a last-minute rush. Seems I wasn't the only one hoping to pile on...helping create this full-mitten bitchslap on Snydely's head.


Cheers!

I second that Gannon !! Glad that proposal came back and bit Snyder in the a- -. He was looking so confident parading around the country hyping the job he's done in Michigan and his plan.

[Gpwrangler]

It's a hell of a lot more private than having a tracking device monitoring my driving at all times and reporting those results in real time to calculate my user fees.

I know we have EDRs in cars now. and leaving out the issues with privacy in general... if the state had unfettered access to them it's fairly easy for the state to then mine the data. What's stopping them from checking to see if I was speeding at any point and send along a few tickets with the road fee? It's not like checking time stamps, location, and miles traveled would at all difficult. nor would pulling the other diagnostic data like if I was wearing my seat-belt when I drove up the corner store. Cha-ching! ticket! Then what's next? Will BOLOs go out to the local constabulary if the data shows my car has been at a bar for too long?

I guess that depends on your driving. Personally I'm sick of paying the costs of people who drive like shit. And I'd like to see those who impact the system pay the bills in proportion to their actual impact rather than zip code or some other bullshit insurance algorithm.

[BankruptcyGuy]

And second question, yes.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I don't think that's likely at all.

[BankruptcyGuy]

In the last 5-8 years, the Michigan, Detroit, American, European, and world economy has been turbulent. Reforming Michigan taxation was a wise action. Its not reasonable to think that Michigan has benefitted. But its also not the only problem we have here.

Your argument that Snyder is bad because one single tax reform didn't bring blooming flowers in 5 minutes is weak. And frankly its self-serving. It took decades to create our economic problems. It'll take even longer to dig out. Don't expect results overnight -- meaning in 5-10 years. I don't think most of us will live to see Michigan back on top again. But if we were to have severe drought in the southwestern US...

The MBT was about as poorly designed of a tax as possible. I don't think it's widely understood how it worked. The tax was a combination of assets and gross revenues. So if a company had a bad year, and made no net income, it would still face a hefty tax. Same with companies will assets but low margins [[wholesalers, for example). The concept was that it would not fluctuate with the economy so that state legislators wouldn't have to cut when things went south.

The repeal of the MBT was unequivocally better for the state and its residents.

[ABetterDetroit]

The MBT was about as poorly designed of a tax as possible. I don't think it's widely understood how it worked. The tax was a combination of assets and gross revenues. So if a company had a bad year, and made no net income, it would still face a hefty tax. Same with companies will assets but low margins [[wholesalers, for example). The concept was that it would not fluctuate with the economy so that state legislators wouldn't have to cut when things went south.

The repeal of the MBT was unequivocally better for the state and its residents.

No problem, I agree completely. But it doesn't change the fact that Governors have been saying "we have to do something about the roads" for decades and they are worse now than ever. The state of Michigan's annual income is north of 50 billion dollars a year and they still can not find 2% more of their income to spend on roads? Its like someone taking home 20 grand a month and not being able to find another $100 to pay the electric bill. Duh, get the job done, do something. Building better roads is a major reason why we became a state in the beginning.

[sumas]

We need better roads But I do want to pay in proprotion to my use. Not that much!

I see they want a better building and new office furnishings in Lansing. What is that about?

Building better roads is important but legislature have sat on their collective duffs for years.

So I guess they can kiss my back tires goodbye. I'll walk.
.

[Hermod]

I think whatever the powers that be are doing, isn't working. The solution seems to be pass the buck to what residents that are left. That gets more of them thinking about greener pastures. I'm glad Proposal None was defeated. It reeked with scam. The worst part was it couldn't be undone. Every time there's a tax increase proposal, it's supposed to resolve some dire need, then gets utilized elsewhere.

Look at your phone bill. The federal tax there was to pay for the Spanish-American War in 1898 and to end after the war. The war was over in three months. The tax is still there.

[BankruptcyGuy]

No problem, I agree completely. But it doesn't change the fact that Governors have been saying "we have to do something about the roads" for decades and they are worse now than ever. The state of Michigan's annual income is north of 50 billion dollars a year and they still can not find 2% more of their income to spend on roads? Its like someone taking home 20 grand a month and not being able to find another $100 to pay the electric bill. Duh, get the job done, do something. Building better roads is a major reason why we became a state in the beginning.

I agree as well. The government [[via the people) want something? Then pay for it. Have an honest discussion about cost and priorities. If it requires a vote of the people, so be it. That's not "shirking your duties" as a legislative body; it's understanding who you work for.

This holds true, IMHO, for schools, roads, prisons, pensions, health care, defense and everything else the government does. Just be honest about what it costs, and let people decide whether they want to pay for it or not.

The two most dishonest discussion points are:

1. You can fund roads by just cutting the budget elsewhere [[you can't).
2. You can fund roads by "taxing the rich" [[unconstitutional) or "taxing corporations" [[drive more business out of the state, why don't you?)