Michigan Central Depot ideas

[E hemingway]

Wow, DetroitDad. You put a bit of thought into that. It reads like a long-term master plan for the neighborhood instead of a just what to do about Michigan Central Depot. I like it. I also agree with Daytwa about thinking realistically, but I wanted this to be more like a brainstorming session, I guess. No idea is too outlandish to talk about right now as far as I am concerned.

[detourdetroit]

I agree with this sentiment.

It is pretty clear that the state of the building is such that restoring it to its former glory would be cost prohibitive, even in a great economy. The best chance for doing something comprehensive with serious funding may have been lost with the casinos building elsewhere. Just take a look at the MGM footprint, bulk and height and make the comparison. What is so ironic about MCS is that one of the few people in the region that actually has the resources to pull off a restoration of the building currently owns it. Only in Detroit...

That said, it's important to understand however, that Michigan Central presents yet another opportunity to build understanding for a third way to progressively manage historic assets. As opposed to the Lafayette which because of size, condition and proximity to the CBD is much better candidate for renovation, MCS could show us a way to tell a new story about Detroit. As mentioned below, the building in its current state generates income for the city and the state through its use as a movie backdrop and tourist destination. We lose those dollars with the building gone. It would be interesting to do a thumbnail analysis of how much economic activity the building currently generates.

Of course I wouldn't be opposed to putting the building out for an RFP to see if anyone can come up with something else, but I think a more productive use of the preservation community's time is to make a case for how the building, even in repose, as others have suggested, is good for Detroit's soul. Instead of being ashamed by MCS, we should use it to tell a different story about the city. What about these uses:

The backdrop for an outdoor concert venue?
Continuing use for the movie industry?
Interpretive tourist destination?
Armature for world class light installation?

Are the Romans embarrassed to have the Colosseum, Forum or Baths of Caracalla in their midst? Are the Peruvians aghast at the ruinous state of Machu Picchu? No, vestiges of societies' past informs and bolsters the richness of life today.

Stabilize it? Yes. Secure it? Yes. Clean it? Yes. Interpret it? Yes. Demolish it? No.

[Gsgeorge]

This is my idea from the other thread.

I am sad to see that this demolition is being rushed through, but who are we kidding -- this has been coming for some time now. Maroun's negligence has allowed one of the great pieces of American train station architecture to fall to ruin. But the two sides are looking at this too "one way or the other". There seem to be only two options here -- demolish, or develop.

I for one think the building needs to go -- but not all of it. It is obvious that no developer is about to come in to fix this thing up, and Maroun certainly isn't going to -- he hardly puts a few thousand into securing the place & fixing the fence, let alone redevelop it. It would cost upwards of $200 million to redevelop the structure. Even without its 13-story office tower, the costs would stay around the same -- you would have to secure the lower levels, carefully dismantle the tower [[no easy feat) and then you would have a cavernous concourse & mezzanine for--what? A shopping complex? Basketball courts? I don't think so. Not to mention its distance from the CBD is a hinderance. There are not many options here.

I adore the MCS, and will be sad to see it go -- but I propose a reasonable solution that may help the residents in Corktown, look good for the city, and allow the preservationists some degree of consolation. Preserve the front facade wall, remove the windows and doors, and expand Roosevelt Park onto the land where the concourse & mezzanine once stood. This radical solution would give Roosevelt Park a similar appearance as the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, where towering baroque columns and a huge atrium dominate a pleasant public space with trees & gardens. Our MCS facade would not be nearly the size of San Francisco's jewel, but it would give the area a much better appearance and actually be an asset to the community. This is the key here -- would we rather have a gravel lot where an architectural gem once stood, or a sculpture, a monument of what once stood, and a beautiful public park where residents & visitors can relax and enjoy the green space and views of the city & bridge. A true asset for the Corktown neighborhood, and Detroit.

And let's be realistic -- it will cost way more than $3.5 million to demolish this hulking tank of a structure. So if we're heading into the $8-$15 million category, it is worth an extra $1-$5 million to preserve the facade & improve the park.

To get an idea of my solution, take a look at this picture of the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco:
http://www.traveltripz.com/wp-conten...-fine-arts.jpg

I really like the idea of using the waiting room space as an outdoor concert venue! Dismantle the roof and keep some of the surrounding elements, like the front facade, interior columns, etc, and it would be a great outdoor venue space.

Let's be honest here. A kind of "ruins park", where you could browse the ruins of the building legally, go to the roof, etc, is pretty unrealistic. So is seeing the building redeveloped. Somewhere in between there, the concert venue idea, the park clubhouse idea, and my idea for a public plaza/gardens, I think these are more viable & realistic. But let's keep hearing them. I know there are lots of ideas out there. I am not sure if anyone who is "in charge" is reading this thread, but it's good to get the ideas out there.

[DetroitDad]

I love the idea for a concert venue. What would be the solution to the noise pollution it would inflict on nearby residential areas? That could be a problem.

[Bob Green]

The 18 story tower never fully used in the depot heyday, so what is there to think you can find a use for it when it is in the shape it is in. It is finally time to take this building down and move on.

[Russix]

“Governor, regional leaders and citizens celebrate grand reopening of Michigan Central Station on 100th anniversity” – Detroit Times April 8, 2013

After surviving a close swing of the wrecking ball, MCS lives to celebrates its 100th birthday with new life. “It’s was like Penn Station all over again”, one attendee claimed.
4 years ago the only future for the station was a political demolition to grab votes during an election year. Luckily, an internet discussion group formed a viable plan to reuse the station and marketed it successfully to the public. The task wasn’t easy, but the potential rewards were limitless. The main feature of the newly reopened station is its placement as the city’s stop on the Chicago-Toronto high-speed rail network. Formally the Detroit-Chicago line use to move an average of 450,000 riders per year. With investments resulting in increased speed, greater city interconnectivity through MCS and expanding destination options, MCS alone is predicted to handle 3 million riders this year. MCS is not just train station anymore, Greyhound and Indian Trails are scheduled to move their passenger terminal to operate in MCS also. “We use to have a lot more trains back in the day”, a local Professor explains, “but there’s nothing in the rule book that say you can’t convert an empty rail platform to a bus terminal”. Along with the international rail link, intercity bus services, local transit agencies are ramping up as well. DDOT/SMART will slightly alter routing to restart service at the old streetcar station at MCS. Engineers from M12-RAIL and the architects from the Roosevelt Park Underground Garage are working together to figure out the best possible way to provide M12-RAIL with a station close to MCS using part of the garage like a subway station. The Ann-Arbor-Detroit commuter line also stops here before heading up to New Center. In the works too, an historic trolley line running right out of MCS along the riverfront, making a complete circle around Belle Isle before returning to MCS. “I can’t believe we almost knocked it down”, says a local resident, “my property values are skyrocketing, everyone wants to be close to MCS because it connects to everything!” Remarkably, some the biggest increases in property values are located in the station itself. The station’s office tower is a great fit for out-of-town firms to set up satellite offices and the residential spaces were quickly rented to frequent travelers. MCS has some floors setup as a hotel for short-term visitors who wish to stay in the station. Local businesses are seeing positive results too, unlike a special event which would provide only a short influx of visitors; MCS provides a steady stream of visitors. “We’re Rich!”, says the mayor, “There is no other single improvement to this city that could have reaped such a huge return while vastly improving the quality of life for its residents.”

[Rocko]

Well, since this thread is here, it's another opportunity for me to post my grand plan for MCS and rail into downtown Detroit. It's long, sorry. I've bolded the parts that directly deal with how to best use MC, but it does tie in with the larger plan.

[quote]The Michigan Central Station could once again be a hub for Detroit Transit, with some vision, some $$$, and a plan in place. It won’t be the only transportation option, but an important cog in the revitalization of transit in and out and through the Motor City.

We’ve all seen the destruction of the inside of the building, thanks to the neglect of owner Matty Moroun and the constant bombardments by vagrants and film crews and everything else. Here is my plan for the building’s revitalization:

We need to realize that the building can once again be successful as a train station, even though not in the CBD, as long as we also provide a direct and convenient link to the CBD for such passengers. MC is just over 1 mile outside of the city center. When constructed in 1913, the station sat on the right of way with Chicago to the west and the Detroit River Tunnel to the east. Also to the east, was the direct connection to the old Michigan Central Third Street Depot and freight yards. Much of this alignment remains today, covered only with vegetation. The rail alignment to Third Street continued at ground level where the Tunnel entrance descends down, then continues through a trough grade separation under Bagley, Rosa Parks, Lafayette, and Fort Street, where it begins to curve to parallel the river and more of less was built over by the enlargement of W. Jefferson in the 80s, after the remnants of FSUD and the approach viaduct were removed. By this time, the freight houses along the river were a thing of the past, too, and the tracks were trimmed back to roughly 15th Street, where the present CSX alignment and NS Boat Yard line end. The tracks between MCS and the Third St. depot were removed, though the trough remained. This still-remaining old freight alignment is very important.

As I see it, Detroit needs a commuter rail station downtown, but that does not mean MC cannot be significant, too. We all know that the time is running out for both Joe Louis and Cobo in their current forms. Joe Louis might be replaced by a new arena near the Fox, while numerous plans are afloat to rebuild and enlarge Cobo. What if the Joe Louis parking garage was demolished, and the Northern face of Cobo demolished, and a trainshed was constructed parallel to Congress, with all stub tracks terminating near the corner of Washington Blvd and Congress St? This would be more downtown than Fort St. station by 3-4 blocks, and more central than a station near Brush Street [[old GTW Station, where the Ren Cen is today). What’s to say the new commuter station cannot be tied in to a redeveloped Cobo Hall? It could not be any more convenient in regard to downtown location, and would have a direct tie to the DPM/Cobo Station. Put the trainshed on the lower level and build Cobo above, or scale the north wall of Cobo away from Congress a few hundred feet and put a glass ceiling over part of the trainshed, to give it plenty of ambient lighting [[we don’t want to copy oldie Detroit Metro Airport terminals... do we?)

Most of this alignment is in place and with nothing built over it. Commuter trains can stop at MCS on their way into the city. The trains can then skirt the river tunnel, follow the old alignment under Fort Street, then follow the old FSUD viaduct alignment behind the post office. The Joe Louis garage could be demoed when the Joe is no longer used. Cobo will be essentially rebuilt, anyhow. A bridge can carry the tracks over W. Jefferson behind Riverfront Apartments, and the Lodge Freeway.

As for MC, it can again become the Detroit terminal for Amtrak trains into an out of the city. You say, “how will Amtrak service to Pontiac, etc. be maintained with a loop out of the way to MCS?” In California, the successful Pacific Surfliner trains operate between San Diego and LA, with some continuing north to Santa Barbara. Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is a stub ended terminal, but it is still used for these through trains. The trains operate push-pull, stay at Los Angeles for 20 minutes, the engineer hops on the cab at the other end, and the train takes off. The process is reversed for trains coming south. Michigan Amtrak trains already operate in push-pull mode. Why can’t the train follow it’s current route from Chicago and go straight in to MCS? It could then reverse direction, get on the Conrail alignment at Bay City Jct, access the CN at CP-Vinewood, and take the same route it already does to get there. MC gets used, and service north is retained. It would also be able to be used effectively in a start up service south to Toledo, and for any future trains which would utilize the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada. MCS would then be Detroit’s hub for Amtrak service, and a stop for every commuter train operating on the AA-Detroit line, or any other future line. Shorter “Shuttle” commuter trains could be timed to carry passengers between MCS and the downtown terminal to get people to and from the Amtrak trains, while the commuter trains on the AA line could just continue after stopping at MC toward downtown.

As for the revitalization of the MCS office tower, it can occur in incremental stages, as opportunities come forward to fill the tower with offices, etc. While the incompleteness of the upper floors of the office tower was once seen as a negative, it can now be a substantial positive. No need to tear out walls, wiring, old systems, old supplies. It’s already been done, because it was never done in the first place. It’s like a new building within the frame of an old building. Everything can be customized, because they’re starting from a nearly clean slate. Extra unoccupied room in the tower? In LA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority built a new headquarters building beside LAUPT. Headquarter operations for DDOT and SMART, dispatching for the new commuter and light rail could all be held within the tower. In Detroit, we already have our office building atop our train station. Since no building downtown currently has a public observation deck, one of the top floors of the east side of the building could be turned into such a place for viewing the powerful skyline of the city and Detroit River. Charge a reasonable fee, something like $5. This can be tied in with a portion of the station which will be stabilized but remain essentially as it is today – to remind us of where we’ve been these past 20 years, and to fulfill the niche of having our urban ruin, and urban exploration, in a safer and more controlled setting. There are plenty of places in the building that would qualify, even if the Concourse, Arcade, and main waiting room are restored. And on that note, the restoration do not necessarily need to be 100% back to 1913. Many of the columns, etc, have been weathered by the constant bombardment of the elements these past two decades, and this can remain, again, another reminder of where we’ve been.

Continue to next post below!!

[Rocko]

MC can be a stop on the commuter line, and THE Detroit station for Amtrak trains. Thus, it would serve Mexicantown and Corktown neighborhood commuters, and area wide Amtrak passengers. Amtrak passengers could take the commuter shuttle downtown or to another commuter stop, but most Amtrak passengers would drive their car to MC or be dropped off. I mean, that’s pretty much how it is at other Michigan Amtrak stations. Know about the old Roosevelt Warehouse building a block to MC’s east on 15th Street at Marantette St.? It’s been abandoned for years, with as many windows broken as MC has. I see parking garage written all over it. Knock out the windows. Insert parking garage decks, as in the Michigan Theatre. Suddenly you have the prettiest garage in Detroit, serving commuters and passengers every day. Put a pedestrian tunnel under 15th Street into MC’s east side. It can have moving walkways if you like, and escalators up onto the main floor of MC at the east entrance.



Restore the station’s public areas. Chicago’s Union Station has a busy food court... MC can have one too. Gift Shops, news stands. Open the ticket windows for Amtrak and commuter passengers. Restore seating in the concourse. Restore the great hall [[waiting room), but rent it out for weddings, company meetings, events, etc. Other big city train stations do this. We have precedents many in other places.

Although the trainsheds were demolished in 2000, the platforms remain, and the track areas were simply paved with asphalt. Relaying new track would not be a problem, nor would erecting modern style platform canopies....unless...

Anyone familiar with the Grand Rapids area might know that there used to be a Union Terminal near downtown to serve the Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and New York Central. Today, it sits under the US-131 freeway, and the station was demoed in the late 50's in preparation for the freeway build. The large glass and steel frame trainshed was taken apart piece by piece and moved to 28th Street for use as a lumber warehouse. Although it’s been taken apart again, it is now safely in storage in the Grand Rapids area. Wouldn’t it be cool to re-erect the Grand Rapids trainshed behind MC as a way to utilize pieces of two of the state’s grandest train stations? We’d need a trainshed anyway, and a large one with lots of light and protection from the elements would be the best.

In its active days, MCS passengers accessed the train platforms from the concourse via the underground tunnel, which took them to stairs and ramps up to their appropriate track. What kind of visual appeal would that have to fix up the tunnel, so as people walk up to their train, they come up to see a huge glass and steel frame trainshed above and brand new platforms, etc.?

In one stroke, we’ve reopened MC and found important realistic, valuable uses for it. We’ve got a grand train station for intercity passengers. We’ve got a facility that can handle an expansion and the current and future capacity. We’ve got a new downtown commuter terminal. No more #53 DDOT Woodward bus transfer from New Center to a bus to get downtown. No major demolition of buildings that wasn’t already going to be done. The alignment is already there.

I realize this will take what seems like and endless supply of $$$ and a lot of planning. I realize it won’t have support from everyone. This is just my idea, one person’s, to try to stem the flow of demolition and negativity in our great city.


>>>Rocko, once upon a time BusterWMU, really enjoying all these new posting options on DetroitYES! Thanks Lowell!!

[gnome]

At 1PM today, as in about 10 minutes,Ken Cockrel, current mayor, will be appearing on WDET's [[101.9 fm) DetroitToday discussing his plan for the Depot.

They have a blog at www.wdetfm.org where you can post your ideas for the building, don't know if Cockrel will take questions from the listening audience, but for what it's worth ...

[Lorax]

There are some great ideas here, I personally like the one which turns the MCD into a semi-ruin folded into a park-like setting. A large low ground-fountain in the park in front, flower beds, perhaps a large botanical garden, stands of trees, the elimination of the tower portion of the station- all could make a creative and economical re-invention of the site.

And definitely let the Metropark system handle the maintenance. In fact, turn the entire project over to them with a nationally known landscape architect in charge, and throw in Belle Isle to sweeten the deal.

[LodgeDodger]

Why don't we ask Matty what his plans are for the building?

Matty?