What is today's protest At City-County about?

[noise]

Congratulations on your success. Perhaps your perception may be impacted by your lot in life [[most peoples are). You may have the extra income and time to donate and think everyone else is in such a position. Most of us workers, laborers or office workers, are not in such a position to want to give more of their hard earned money to others.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a "1%er" or anything. That said, why hasn't a push to do away with all "entitlement" programs been successful? I know my life is better if the people around me are doing better.

[noise]

I believe Noise works at good ole' WSU. A very prestigious university!

I am. One of the 3 research institutions in the state.

[guito13]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a "1%er" or anything. That said, why hasn't a push to do away with all "entitlement" programs been successful? I know my life is better if the people around me are doing better.

I don't think most people want those programs completely gone, they just want them used for people/families who actually are trying to better themselves. They don't want people leeching off of taxpayers. As far as programs like affirmative action, yes, lots of people want them gone in their current forms. They want equality, just like everyone else.

[guito13]

I am. One of the 3 research institutions in the state.

Then indirectly I am your employer, both as a taxpayer and current student.

[noise]

I don't think most people want those programs completely gone, they just want them used for people/families who actually are trying to better themselves. They don't want people leeching off of taxpayers. As far as programs like affirmative action, yes, lots of people want them gone in their current forms. They want equality, just like everyone else.

Who is leeching? Who is lazy? Everyone who protests? Most of the people utilizing these programs?

Seems to be an emotional argument more than a factual argument. Unless, of course, you just conclude Romney's 47% of entitled folks are all lazy.

[noise]

Then indirectly I am your employer, both as a taxpayer and current student.

Umm, okay?

[canuck]

My two cents:

These folks will never become more than a handful of wild-eyed radicals if they go around screaming about racism and jailing banksters.

I'm probably center-left, but used to be pretty far left. Mostly I just disagree with the right, who I believe have completely sold out to corporations and the religious right [[I'm religious, too, just not political about it). They're basically turning us into a banana republic, with the very rich and the very poor and little in between.

For example: $15/hour for burger flipping is absurd. $11? That I could get behind. The minimum wage is far too low.

The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. Do we need to raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy? Yeah, for sure! Do we need to throw them in jail? Probably not.

However, do I support an EM? Sure, in some form, since the city government has failed. I'm the last person you're going to find rallying to give Brenda Jones any kind of power back.

Practicality, people. I want people to be able to work hard and earn a decent living as a result, that's all.

Yours is the best, most level-headed post in this thread. No insults, just a lot of good scales of justice type of thinking. Bravo poobert!

[guito13]

Who is leeching? Who is lazy? Everyone who protests? Most of the people utilizing these programs?

Seems to be an emotional argument more than a factual argument. Unless, of course, you just conclude Romney's 47% of entitled folks are all lazy.

I conclude that until studies show me otherwise that the system is being significantly abused. I have no assumption of the % of people on the programs that are abusing them. I base this off of what I see at the grocery stores where the person with the coach purse buys food with their bridge card or where the person buys cheap pop cans and simply returns them to get money for beer/booze.

I want programs that are thoroughly audited and abusers are removed and barred from getting help again.

[EastsideAl]

As far as programs like affirmative action, yes, lots of people want them gone in their current forms. They want equality, just like everyone else.

Back to the good ol' days, when we all had equality!

I love how it's now so easy to ignore completely the 200+ years of affirmative action for white people we've had in this country. Now it's suddenly time to immediately declare "equality" as our most paramount value. [[An "equality" that has never existed in reality, and indeed was actively resisted for most of our history)

[guito13]

Umm, okay?

Public universities are typically funded by taxpayers and students am I wrong?

[noise]

I conclude that until studies show me otherwise that the system is being significantly abused. I have no assumption of the % of people on the programs that are abusing them. I base this off of what I see at the grocery stores where the person with the coach purse buys food with their bridge card or where the person buys cheap pop cans and simply returns them to get money for beer/booze.

I want programs that are thoroughly audited and abusers are removed and barred from getting help again.

Well, you'll have to accept that many people won't view your unsupported and inadequately sampled anecdotal "evidence" as sufficient.

[noise]

Public universities are typically funded by taxpayers and students am I wrong?

In part. But I'm not sure I get your point.

[noise]

Back to the good ol' days, when we all had equality!

I love how it's now so easy to ignore completely the 200+ years of affirmative action for white people we've had in this country. Now it's suddenly time to immediately declare "equality" as our most paramount value. [[An "equality" that has never existed in reality, and indeed was actively resisted for most of our history)

It's an emotional argument. There are almost endless sources proving current racial inequalities if you actually care to know. But, of course, it's not convenient for many people to know.

[ABetterDetroit]

What is your reason for supporting this?

DO you make minimum wage or have you worked hard to better yourself and still think others who dont work to better themselves should get the same beneift as you but without having to work for it?

Just finished catching up on this thread. The reasons are in the original post. Do you really think that paying a minuimum wage of $10.10 an hour is the same thing as an entitlement? To earn a minuimum wage, you have to keep and hold a job. Get it? Not the same thing as sitting at home on the dole. If there is not an economic incentive to go to work, for example, you can make more money staying home on the dole, duh, why go get a job? $7.45 an hour is a relic of an economic bygone era.

[canuck]

Just finished catching up on this thread. The reasons are in the original post. Do you really think that paying a minuimum wage of $10.10 an hour is the same thing as an entitlement? To earn a minuimum wage, you have to keep and hold a job. Get it? Not the same thing as sitting at home on the dole. If there is not an economic incentive to go to work, for example, you can make more money staying home on the dole, duh, why go get a job? $7.45 an hour is a relic of an economic bygone era.

Yes, and if you add the cost of travel to and from said job in a sprawly environment with deficient options, you are not helping the economic outlook of the individual or the state.

[Hypestyles]

if organized labor still had an expansive, major presence in the city/region/state, events like this would have more cachet. OL has dwindled drastically nationwide since, say the 1950s, and particularly in Michigan. Most people either don't care or feel powerless to help if they do.

[Wesley Mouch]

It's an emotional argument. There are almost endless sources proving current racial inequalities if you actually care to know. But, of course, it's not convenient for many people to know.

The problem today is that many of our beliefs are based on 'proof' that isn't proof.


For example, yesterday on NPR the commentator said that going to a 2 year community college means you have significantly smaller chance of finishing with a 4 year degree from a university. Why? Because that's the percentage OUTCOME. But this doesn't make the community college attendance the CAUSE. It may be that the people who won't finish university decide to go to community college because they don't want to finish college.

We look a lot of OUTCOMES and mistake them for CAUSES. And when we do that, we believe the 'proof' that confirms our point-of-view.

Is there racial inequality? Yes. Is it 'proven' by statistical outcomes. No.

Your point that the information is there 'if you want to know' just means you've found something you believe -- found a statistic that confirms it -- and then criticize others who don't agree with you.

Here's another example: Does the fact that there are few gay marriages in Michigan prove discrimination against gays. No. It is a result of other factors -- the biggest being that it was illegal. The cause wasn't discrimination. But there was discrimination.

[noise]

That's absolute nonsense. Proof exists, period. Proof doesn't exist only because people simply want to believe it. That's one of the most dishonest, emotional arguments I've read here. It's actually the opposite. You deny proof because it doesn't fit your incorrect assumptions or beliefs.

[Hermod]

That's absolute nonsense. Proof exists, period. Proof doesn't exist only because people simply want to believe it. That's one of the most dishonest, emotional arguments I've read here. It's actually the opposite. You deny proof because it doesn't fit your incorrect assumptions or beliefs.

Unequal results is not 100% due to unequal opportunity.

[Wesley Mouch]

That's absolute nonsense. Proof exists, period. Proof doesn't exist only because people simply want to believe it. That's one of the most dishonest, emotional arguments I've read here. It's actually the opposite. You deny proof because it doesn't fit your incorrect assumptions or beliefs.

Noise -- there's absolutely no doubt that racial inequality exists. You really don't need to prove it to anyone.

But do tell me about my incorrect assumptions and beliefs. What can I learn?

[guito13]

Back to the good ol' days, when we all had equality!

I love how it's now so easy to ignore completely the 200+ years of affirmative action for white people we've had in this country. Now it's suddenly time to immediately declare "equality" as our most paramount value. [[An "equality" that has never existed in reality, and indeed was actively resisted for most of our history)

So two wrongs make a right huh? Equality SHOULD be a paramount value.

I can remember a recent news story that says that minority students are being mistreated in schools because the majority of disciplinary actions are being done to them. So should we not punish a student if they are doing something wrong because they are a minority? Really?

My wife is a teacher and the fact of the matter is that most of the kids who cause problems are a minority. What is she supposed to do, just accept it and move on, or try to correct their behavior so that they can hopefully become productive, successful members of society? At the end of the day, what is really the most fair way to handle this for all parties involved?