Lansing's plan for immigration and Detroit?

[renf]

Governor Snyder's plan specifically mentions EB-2 visas. There is a great deal of misunderstanding about types of visas. To obtain an EB-2 visa an applicant
must a) hold an advanced degree, typically in STEM
b) or show exceptional ability in the sciences, arts or business that will
benefit the national economy and
c) have a job offer from an employer who has filed the appropriate paper work.
If Governor Snyder's plan gets federal approval, I should think that it
would be attractive to immigrant students who get advanced degrees in science and math at MSU, Wayne, Michigan and other US universities.
Some will, undoubtedly, set up their own firms.
It is very reasonable to experiment with this program. I don't know if
the federal government will approve making a residential requirement for
an EB-2 visa. Will Congress have to change the 1990 immigration law that set up the EB-2 visas?
Does anyone know what type of visa the Red Wings and Tigers use to get their foreign born workers approved for employment in Detroit? It would
boost city income tax collections if those workers lived in the city.

[Meddle]

I don't see the need to import more people. I see the need for jobs for the people already in the area.

What was that movie line ... "Build it and they will come" ... ? Get a worthwhile job base and you'll have more people than you can handle.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The story is on Huffington also.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...oit&ir=Detroit

[jt1]

Just to clarify and tie a couple threads together: Patterson's comments about herding the Indians into the city and walling it off was actually his attempt to support this proposal.

He was implying that we just need more STEM visas, keep the people in the city with a little help and the city will flourish. His vision and support for the city were misunderstood, he meant people from India helping repopulate the city.

[iheartthed]

Do you know what an H1-B visa actually is and who qualifies for one? Here's a hint, they aren't being given to unskilled, uneducated manual laborers as you seem to be implying.

These are for foreign-born and foreign-trained engineers, computer programmers, doctors, scientists, and other HIGHLY-skilled and HIGHLY-educated professionals. They're not exactly competing for the same pool of jobs with Joe Six-Pack, the unemployed assembly line worker from Downriver.

Many, if not most, of H1-B recipients are educated here in the US; it's the unwritten requirement to get a company to even consider sponsorship. And you're right, H1-B workers are not competing for unskilled labor jobs. H-1Bs are too expensive for that, plus the government only allows 65,000 per year for the entire country. Also, employers must pay persons holding work visas fair wages based on what is paid for similar roles in the region which the visa holder will be primarily located.

[iheartthed]

The major of this proposal is that any person moving to Detroit on a work visa would need a company to sponsor it. Detroit needs immigrants to create businesses to rebuild the local economy, which they won't be doing that by being tethered to a large corporation. In other words, the city needs entrepreneurs. Is this in some way tied to entrepreneurship other than hoping the foreigners create businesses? Like is Dan Gilbert setting up a shell company to provide sponsorship and incubator of business ideas?

[Chinman]

oh my GOD...My GreatGrandfather on my Dad's side came to America in 1887. No Visa Needed. My Mothers Great-Great Grandfather came from Ireland in 1802. Guess that you only get to come in the Country if you are from Europe!

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I find the idea interesting because its thinking outside of the box, which is something that is seldom done. Because of the 5 year residency requirement, there could be a sizable impact on the economy of the city. There could quickly be a much greater demand for housing and other goods and services.

I find this part appealing:

"The governor specifically is trying to find flexibility in a waiver that allows foreign workers with a master's degree or higher — or who demonstrate exceptional skills in science, business or art — to come to the U.S. if it is in the "national interest." The waiver is available if an applicant does not have a job or if a prospective employer cannot show that there are no qualified U.S. citizens to fill the position."

These would be educated and skilled people, presumably also of some financial means. They might end up creating a good number of businesses.

[Detroitnerd]

The major of this proposal is that any person moving to Detroit on a work visa would need a company to sponsor it. Detroit needs immigrants to create businesses to rebuild the local economy, which they won't be doing that by being tethered to a large corporation. In other words, the city needs entrepreneurs. Is this in some way tied to entrepreneurship other than hoping the foreigners create businesses? Like is Dan Gilbert setting up a shell company to provide sponsorship and incubator of business ideas?

This is getting closer to the heart of the matter. Yes, whether it's a sari shop or a software company, immigrants tend to set up new businesses. That's why they are so good for the places they emigrate to. But I wouldn't be hopeful at all about any plans announced by Snyder. Their reasoning probably goes: Why should U.S. corporations pay American workers decent wages when they can hire indentured servants from outside the country, pay them less, and then use them to drive their outsourcing efforts?

As for the idea that all native-born American engineers are employed and can't be freed up to meet the demand for them, I don't buy it. You should see the website for the American Engineering Association. They're hitting the ceiling about the ways in which U.S. corporations refuse to hire Americans and want those workers on limited visas. It's an eye-opener.

http://www.aea.org/employment.htm

[Danny]

If Snyder, the Nerd. wants to turn Detroit into a mini-New York City so be it. It least we have Chinese living the northwest side, East Indians at the East Side and more Arabs living the West Side.

[mwilbert]

the logic behind the proposal is the same. Snyder is saying we need 50,000 immigrants here who hold advanced degrees or have exceptional skills. Ok. Show me how the DETROIT labor market absorbs 50,000 advanced degree holders? It's the same canard used to support the h1b issue. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF AMERICANS WITH THESE SKILLS there is no need to import them either "temporarily" [[h1b) or permenently [[EB-2). What we have is a shortage of companies willing to employ Americans[[read: pay them a wage commiserate with the level of education and experience).

All the individual facts in your comment above are correct [[the "show me" sentence isn't a fact.) However, they miss the point of the proposal. The proposal is intended to make Detroit a place where companies know they can get the talent they need. By doing that, the hope is that we increase the likelihood that companies will in fact locate in the area, either companies founded by these immigrants, or companies who want to hire them. This is why I think a plan of this sort should also promote visas for immigrant entrepreneurs living and starting businesses in Detroit. The presumption is that those people and businesses would also spend money on people who are already here, or at a minimum pay taxes

It might not work. But if it doesn't work, it is unlikely to be because there are Americans who could do these jobs, or because employers aren't paying high enough wages to Americans.

[coracle]

oh my GOD...My GreatGrandfather on my Dad's side came to America in 1887. No Visa Needed. My Mothers Great-Great Grandfather came from Ireland in 1802. Guess that you only get to come in the Country if you are from Europe!

I don't understand the point you're making but it's worth dwelling for a moment on the fact that European immigrants carved Detroit out of the wilderness. They occupied it; made it successful; filled the DIA with the best Art that money could buy, and now we have reached a nadir where it is necessary to pawn the results of their endeavors to finance basic services for the current residents. I would say more European immigrants might prove very useful at this juncture. I do however think it will be Asians that answer the call - which is fine - but what a pity it can't be Americans.

[Hermod]

oh my GOD...My GreatGrandfather on my Dad's side came to America in 1887. No Visa Needed. My Mothers Great-Great Grandfather came from Ireland in 1802. Guess that you only get to come in the Country if you are from Europe!

Remember that the longest period of prosperity for the manual laborer and the peak of unionization for the US came with a combination of draconian immigration controls of the 1920s and the birth drought of the 1930s.

The liberalization of immigration [[legal and illegal) and the coming of age of the baby boomers brought a labor surplus that killed wages.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not really true, mwilbert, because Snyder is pushing to expand the H1-B program, even though that's in Washington's hands. [[See an editorial from the Detroit News trying to sell it from earlier this week.) So that definitely tells you in which direction Snyder wants to go.

Ahmmm... isn't that a governor's job? I should think 'pushing' the feds to do things in Michigan's best interest should be celebrated?

On that subject, where's the celebration that Snyder is also pushing to help Detroit retirees whose pensions are at risk? Even when you don't agree with someone's policies or past actions, shouldn't this be celebrated too?

Governor Snyder... keep up the good work. I'm glad you have the best interests of your Detroit citizens in mind -- and that you are making improvements.

[Cliffy]

Most companies do not accept immigrants unless they have a masters degree from the US. Foreign degrees from India are not worth the paper they are printed on.

[Cliffy]

Ahmmm... isn't that a governor's job? I should think 'pushing' the feds to do things in Michigan's best interest should be celebrated?

On that subject, where's the celebration that Snyder is also pushing to help Detroit retirees whose pensions are at risk? Even when you don't agree with someone's policies or past actions, shouldn't this be celebrated too?

Governor Snyder... keep up the good work. I'm glad you have the best interests of your Detroit citizens in mind -- and that you are making improvements.

Come on Wesley. Wake up. He has killed us. Taxed our retirement, screwed us on the homestead tax credit, forced everyone to pay sky high insurance in the public sector. This surplus is off the backs of the little guys. All this shit that comes out of his mouth is for big business. I can't believe the little guy keeps falling for this loser.

[bailey]

All the individual facts in your comment above are correct [[the "show me" sentence isn't a fact.) However, they miss the point of the proposal. The proposal is intended to make Detroit a place where companies know they can get the talent they need. By doing that, the hope is that we increase the likelihood that companies will in fact locate in the area, either companies founded by these immigrants, or companies who want to hire them. This is why I think a plan of this sort should also promote visas for immigrant entrepreneurs living and starting businesses in Detroit. The presumption is that those people and businesses would also spend money on people who are already here, or at a minimum pay taxes

.

How is it that Detroit CANT do that now with AMERICAN citizens already here and matriculating at our many fine public and private universities? As has been repeatedly stated, Snyder is targeting masters and above and or special skill holders, so no, they aren't going to open a MEtro PCS, or a Coney Island, or another ghetto convience store selling loosies and expired meats... they are going to be in DIRECT competition with the people we are paying to educate who are leaving this state in droves.

I get the idea of trying to guarantee an educated labor force, however, there is ZERO need to import them from outside the US. There is barely a need to import them from out of state. I'd like to see a similar incentive program for UM or MSU or wherever grads. Hey, move to Detroit for 5 years after graduation and we'll help with your loans? That is a pretty good incentive.
The region doesn't need an effort to attract 50,000 unemployed foreigners with advanced degrees, it needs a plan to attract companies to hire the thousands of highly educated [[at tax payer expense) we're sending out of state year after year.

It might not work. But if it doesn't work, it is unlikely to be because there are Americans who could do these jobs, or because employers aren't paying high enough wages to Americans

Just about every trade journal I've seen would disagree with you on that. These efforts are to bring in skilled labor that will work for less or are semi disposable.

and I'm really not trying to be a "dey tuk r jahbs" nativist, but someone has to explain to me how this is supposed to work in the way Snyder is claiming.

[Dan Wesson]

Just about every trade journal I've seen would disagree with you on that. These efforts are to bring in skilled labor that will work for less or are semi disposable.

Ahhhhhhhhhh....

The New Normal!

[oladub]

Employ the law of supply and demand. Just substitute taxes on import corporations while removing income taxes from the middle class and heavily fine and incarcerate the cheating employers of illegal aliens. It would suddenly start making sense to hire US workers.

The Lansing proposal instead models itself after what the Romans used to do. Legionaries were pensioned off with land on the unstable edges of the Empire's borders. Pro-Roman tribes, such as the Croats, were also brought in to occupy border areas to protect them from the barbarians. This is partly about securing a lawless area. Maybe these immigrants will have their own way of dealing with thugs.

To get Americans back to work, something this plan is not about, we have to instead create a shortage of US workers so they can demand instead of beg for higher wages. Running in a bunch of foreigners will only create competition for US workers. Why should US college students study computer science if hoards of Asians are brought in the do that work for less money? This isn't a good patch.

[ghettopalmetto]

I get the idea of trying to guarantee an educated labor force, however, there is ZERO need to import them from outside the US. There is barely a need to import them from out of state. I'd like to see a similar incentive program for UM or MSU or wherever grads. Hey, move to Detroit for 5 years after graduation and we'll help with your loans? That is a pretty good incentive.

The region doesn't need an effort to attract 50,000 unemployed foreigners with advanced degrees, it needs a plan to attract companies to hire the thousands of highly educated [[at tax payer expense) we're sending out of state year after year.

Here's the problem: A college degree is not a college degree. There are shortages galore in the engineering world. No number of English Lit majors is going to fill that void. You need people with *ahem* engineering degrees to fill engineering positions.

Even within engineering...when I was an undergrad, all kinds of people thought they could get a degree in Computer Science or Computer Engineering, sign-on with a Microsoft or IBM or Apple or tech startup, and cash and stock options would never stop raining. Other departments suffered in enrollment. Now, fast forward about 15 years, and we have a shortage of qualified mechanical engineers and structural engineers who know how to build things. While all the computer gamers are beating each other up over the few available jobs in their field, we're going to have a dearth of experience in the manufacturing and construction industries for the next few decades [[and the Recession didn't exactly help new grads gain the experience they need!).

The problem really begins in grade school, when we tell kids to "not worry so much" about math and science, because they're "hard" subjects and you don't need to know much about them anyway no how. And an educational system of rote memorization and repeated multiple-guess test-taking doesn't exactly develop the skills necessary to think on your feet in a technical career.

The other problem is one of access and affordability. States keep making cuts to higher education, and tuition keeps rising to astronomical levels. Many would-be technical wizards are surely discouraged from even pursuing a degree because their family simply doesn't have the means.

It just so happens, however, that due to the sheer numbers of their population, India and China produce ridiculous amounts of engineers who are simply *qualified* to do the jobs that their wannabe-beatnik American friends are not.

[mwilbert]

How is it that Detroit CANT do that now with AMERICAN citizens already here and matriculating at our many fine public and private universities?

Because Detroit apparently doesn't have anything attractive enough to make them want to congregate here. The advantage of a visa plan is that there are skilled people who really want US visas, and you could potentially trade them those visas in exchange for a commitment to be in Detroit.

That is why this plan could make sense, and why there is no alternative plan available--we have a cheap bribe available for foreigners, which doesn't work on Americans. Americans would need an expensive bribe, which Detroit can't afford, and neither Michigan nor Congress would agree to.

As has been repeatedly stated, Snyder is targeting masters and above and or special skill holders, so no, they aren't going to open a MEtro PCS, or a Coney Island, or another ghetto convience store selling loosies and expired meats... they are going to be in DIRECT competition with the people we are paying to educate who are leaving this state in droves.

I get the idea of trying to guarantee an educated labor force, however, there is ZERO need to import them from outside the US. There is barely a need to import them from out of state.

Possibly true, but not relevant to the argument of getting people to live in Detroit.

I'd like to see a similar incentive program for UM or MSU or wherever grads. Hey, move to Detroit for 5 years after graduation and we'll help with your loans? That is a pretty good incentive.

Also a good plan, if the loan forgiveness were large enough and the money for it were available.

The region doesn't need an effort to attract 50,000 unemployed foreigners with advanced degrees, it needs a plan to attract companies to hire the thousands of highly educated [[at tax payer expense) we're sending out of state year after year.

Making this unusual new talent pool available would be intended to attract employers. Certainly whatever other methods we could come up with would be good too.

Just about every trade journal I've seen would disagree with you on that. These efforts are to bring in skilled labor that will work for less or are semi disposable.

Can't figure out what this is supposed to refer to.

and I'm really not trying to be a "dey tuk r jahbs" nativist, but someone has to explain to me how this is supposed to work in the way Snyder is claiming.

I have tried to explain it. This is not a "make life better for skilled Americans plan", not that such a plan might not be a good idea. It is a "attract skilled people and businesses who need them to Detroit plan." These objectives are not at all the same.

[bailey]

I have tried to explain it. This is not a "make life better for skilled Americans plan", not that such a plan might not be a good idea. It is a "attract skilled people and businesses who need them to Detroit plan." These objectives are not at all the same.

What I have tried to explain is that I agree they are not the same. My point is that they are in fact conflicting. Which is the problem.

We have a labor over supply, not a shortage. Importing 50k new unemployed [[because he's asking for the waivers on employment requirement) STEM people from out of the country is not going to accomplish anything.

There are shortages galore in the engineering world. No number of English Lit majors is going to fill that void. You need people with *ahem* engineering degrees to fill engineering positions.

That is the point though, THERE IS NO ENGINEERING/STEM SHORTAGE. there is a shortage of CHEAP STEM'ers.

And yet, alongside such dire projections, you’ll also find reports suggesting just the opposite—that there are more STEM workers than suitable jobs.One study found, for example, that wages for U.S. workers in computer and math fields have largely stagnated since 2000. Even as the Great Recession slowly recedes, STEM workers at every stage of the career pipeline, from freshly minted grads to mid- and late-career Ph.D.s, still struggle to find employment as many companies, including Boeing, IBM, and Symantec, continue to lay off thousands of STEM workers.
....
What’s perhaps most perplexing about the claim of a STEM worker shortage is that many studies have directly contradicted it, including reports from Duke University, the Rochester Institute of Technology, the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, and the Rand Corp. A 2004 Rand study, for example, stated that there was no evidence “that such shortages have existed at least since 1990, nor that they are on the horizon.”


That report argued that the best indicator of a shortfall would be a widespread rise in salaries throughout the STEM community. But the price of labor has not risen, as you would expect it to do if STEM workers were scarce. In computing and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to the EPI and other analyses. And over the past 30 years, according to the Georgetown report, engineers’ and engineering technicians’ wages have grown the least of all STEM wages and also more slowly than those in non-STEM fields; while STEM workers as a group have seen wages rise 33 percent and non-STEM workers’ wages rose by 23 percent, engineering salaries grew by just 18 percent. The situation is even more grim for those who get a Ph.D. in science, math, or engineering. The Georgetown study states it succinctly: “At the highest levels of educational attainment, STEM wages are not competitive.”


Given all of the above, it is difficult to make a case that there has been, is, or will soon be a STEM labor shortage. “If there was really a STEM labor market crisis, you’d be seeing very different behaviors from companies,” notes Ron Hira, an associate professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology, in New York state. “You wouldn’t see companies cutting their retirement contributions, or hiring new workers and giving them worse benefits packages. Instead you would see signing bonuses, you’d see wage increases. You would see these companies really training their incumbent workers.”


“None of those things are observable,” Hira says. “In fact, they’re operating in the opposite way.”
....
Clearly, powerful forces must be at work to perpetuate the cycle. One is obvious: the bottom line. Companies would rather not pay STEM professionals high salaries with lavish benefits, offer them training on the job, or guarantee them decades of stable employment. So having an oversupply of workers, whether domestically educated or imported, is to their benefit. It gives employers a larger pool from which they can pick the “best and the brightest,” and it helps keep wages in check. No less an authority than Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, said as much when in 2007 he advocated boosting the number of skilled immigrants entering the United States so as to “suppress” the wages of their U.S. counterparts, which he considered too high.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/edu...isis-is-a-myth

The STEM Shortage Is A Myth

The Economic Policy Institute published an informative paper several weeks ago that broke down a lot of the myths around the STEM shortage.
First, let's look at basic economics. When there's a shortage — when demand exceeds supply — the price of a good increases. If there were truly a supply shortage, then, why hasn't the compensation for tech workers increased dramatically?

Even more, were there truly a STEM shortage — were demand for STEM majors to exceed supply — one would expect that unemployment statistics for recent STEM graduates would be outstandingly low.
The reality? Nope.

...
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-r...#ixzz2rKehKaMP

[Wesley Mouch]

...You should see the website for the American Engineering Association. They're hitting the ceiling about the ways in which U.S. corporations refuse to hire Americans and want those workers on limited visas. It's an eye-opener.

http://www.aea.org/employment.htm

Nerd, funny to see you linking to a group of right-wing, fear-mongering wackos who haven't updated their website since 2010.

[bailey]

Does anyone know what type of visa the Red Wings and Tigers use to get their foreign born workers approved for employment in Detroit? It would
boost city income tax collections if those workers lived in the city.

If they are non-immigrants, they get 0-1 visas. aka "genius" visas. Actors, athletes, scientists...etc get them. They are initially given for three years, but they can renew yearly and there is no cap on how many the US issues.

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd, funny to see you linking to a group of right-wing, fear-mongering wackos who haven't updated their website since 2010.

Hey, dismiss the concerns -- and evidence -- of those you don't agree with and maybe it will all go away.