The End of Detroit... [Plan to widen I-94, I-75]

[Bham1982]

Local mobility options? You mean, "Drive, drive, or drive"?

You realize buses can travel on highways, right? If you prefer, take the empty SMART bus that passes by my neighborhood and blocks traffic on 14 Mile, and put it on the freeway.

[Bham1982]

The advent of freeways in Detroit paralleled quite neatly with one of the most dramatic depopulating of an urban environment in world history. I don't know who in their right mind could argue that Detroit needs anymore freeway lanes based on that fact alone.

The freeway system didn't cause Detroit's economic decline. This canard keeps getting used, and is total nonsense.

If no freeways had been built, Detroit would probably look about the same, and downtown would probably be much worse, because it would be inaccessible. You'll notice the East Side, with far fewer freeways than the West Side, is also far more bombed out.

[bailey]

That part I get. What I don't get is how anyone could argue with a straight face that this is in the best interest of the city.

same way a used car salesman tells you with a straight face that the former owner was little old lady that only drove that car to church and bingo.

[ghettopalmetto]

The freeway system didn't cause Detroit's economic decline. This canard keeps getting used, and is total nonsense.

If no freeways had been built, Detroit would probably look about the same, and downtown would probably be much worse, because it would be inaccessible. You'll notice the East Side, with far fewer freeways than the West Side, is also far more bombed out.

No, we get it. People moved out to Oakland and Macomb Counties because "they wanted to move out of Detroit" and "bad schools" and "riots" and all that jazz.

We get it. Transportation exists in a vacuum. Nothing is interrelated. Growth in the suburbs was always inevitable, and new freeways just help people get what they want.

Got it.

Also, Detroit is not New York. Just had to throw that in there.

[Novine]

"Downtown Royal Oak and Ferndale only began revitalizing once they had the freeway access. The residential areas were on a long, slow decline prior to I-696. Northern Royal Oak used to be the "nice side" of Royal Oak; when the highway was completed, adjacent Southern Royal Oak became the "nice side"."

Following your logic, it also should have done wonders for Royal Oak Township, Oak Park, Madison Heights and Hazel Park. Yet, there's little sign of revival in any of those communities.

[ghettopalmetto]

"Downtown Royal Oak and Ferndale only began revitalizing once they had the freeway access. The residential areas were on a long, slow decline prior to I-696. Northern Royal Oak used to be the "nice side" of Royal Oak; when the highway was completed, adjacent Southern Royal Oak became the "nice side"."

Following your logic, it also should have done wonders for Royal Oak Township, Oak Park, Madison Heights and Hazel Park. Yet, there's little sign of revival in any of those communities.

Maybe MDOT should add lanes to I-696, then, and generate more economic development?

[Novine]

Let's also point out that the decline in population in RO increased in the 10 years after the freeway was constructed as compared to the previous 10 years. Same with Ferndale. That's a real sign of progress.

[Novine]

How does your precious little Birmingham survive? Not a freeway through it or even on its border. I'm surprised it hasn't withered up and died yet.

[Bham1982]

"Downtown Royal Oak and Ferndale only began revitalizing once they had the freeway access. The residential areas were on a long, slow decline prior to I-696. Northern Royal Oak used to be the "nice side" of Royal Oak; when the highway was completed, adjacent Southern Royal Oak became the "nice side"."

Following your logic, it also should have done wonders for Royal Oak Township, Oak Park, Madison Heights and Hazel Park. Yet, there's little sign of revival in any of those communities.

Obviously the effects of a transportation improvement are not shared equally among all. In your area Novi became a boomtown and Lyon is next, while Wixom remains a laggard. South of the freeway in Western Oakland is usually more high end housing.

The places you mention in South Oakland generally have crap schools, high crime, no downtowns, no residential character and a perceived redneckish white or lower class black populations. A freeway or transit line will not solve socioeconomic problems but can help areas with inherent potential.

[Bham1982]

How does your precious little Birmingham survive? Not a freeway through it or even on its border. I'm surprised it hasn't withered up and died yet.

I never said a freeway is essential for prosperity. The issue is general accessibility.

Birmingham is very close to I-75, though, and Southfield Rd. becomes Southfield Fwy.

[rb336]

Obviously the effects of a transportation improvement are not shared equally among all. In your area Novi became a boomtown and Lyon is next, while Wixom remains a laggard. South of the freeway in Western Oakland is usually more high end housing.

The places you mention in South Oakland generally have crap schools, high crime, no downtowns, no residential character and a perceived redneckish white or lower class black populations. A freeway or transit line will not solve socioeconomic problems but can help areas with inherent potential.

Novi had little "inherent potential," but Ferndale and RO did. Conversely, the hearts of entire communities were ripped out in Detroit when the freeways were put in. Impact on the areas the freeways will affect are seldom put into consideration unless its a wealthy community or, in the case of 696, a very well organized group.

[bailey]

I never said a freeway is essential for prosperity. The issue is general accessibility.

Birmingham is very close to I-75, though, and Southfield Rd. becomes Southfield Fwy.

Exactly... close but not TOO close...

[Wesley Mouch]

Novi had little "inherent potential," but Ferndale and RO did. Conversely, the hearts of entire communities were ripped out in Detroit when the freeways were put in. Impact on the areas the freeways will affect are seldom put into consideration unless its a wealthy community or, in the case of 696, a very well organized group.

What excellent targeting of highways to manage to destroy the 'heart' so easily.

What an absurd, melodramatic metaphor. What a magnificent shifting of blame from a decaying neighborhood to some evil beast who rips hearts out of neighborhoods.

Sure, freeways [[and all other development) can destroy things that are good. We should avoid that at all cost. But to blame the freeways for Detroit's decline is so spectacularly naive. But if blaming others makes you feel good, well its very important to feel good.

[canuck]

Obviously the effects of a transportation improvement are not shared equally among all. In your area Novi became a boomtown and Lyon is next, while Wixom remains a laggard. South of the freeway in Western Oakland is usually more high end housing.

The places you mention in South Oakland generally have crap schools, high crime, no downtowns, no residential character and a perceived redneckish white or lower class black populations. A freeway or transit line will not solve socioeconomic problems but can help areas with inherent potential.

It seems to me like these areas are the ones with a greater need for transit choices other than the old jalopy. The problems created by metropolitan sprawl need to be mitigated by a number of solutions, not the least of which are reliable, safe, timely and easily accessed transit. I think that the major problem I detect in the arguments against better transit for all is that Detroit metro exists in its own little vacuum. Detroit is competing for investment, and as such needs to compete against cities with proper equipment to satisfy investors that "it is doing its best" at delivering essential services.


If you pick and choose the "worthy and the unworthy" to allow for infrastructure renewal, you are in fact depriving the entire community of essential benefits. This invites further withdrawal from the less fortunate and the social costs are immense. If someone with a lower paid industrial job needs bussing to it, you can be sure that most urban chambers of commerce are pushing for bus service to the furtest nooks an crannies of boondock industrial parks. This needs to be reinforced at the user end also; the ease of access is also essential.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip... The problems created by metropolitan sprawl need to be mitigated by a number of solutions, not the least of which are reliable, safe, timely and easily accessed transit. ...snip...

The best solution to this problem isn't a trickle-down solution of transit for all, it would be a vibrant Detroit where people are willing to live. If you can't get to your job, then move. If your employer can't find workers, they'll pay more. Its the market. It solves problems better than bureaucrats who invariably try to engineer things to benefit the powerful. The solution isn't more rules -- its less.

I'm OK with transit and roads. They're necessary. But right now our problem isn't roads to Wixom, its good roads in Detroit. We have enough. Let's just make them work as well as possible.

Now busses on the other hand, we need more and better management. And we fight over who will control them with two different systems. Insanity. Why? Because each group mistrusts the other for good reason. Solution... take away the government monopoly on transportation. Here's something anyone could start. Register with city hall for a modest fee. Get inspected for a modest fee. And start driving your van around charging fares printed in big letters on the side of your van. Transit problem solved. [[Well, not completely -- but could it be worse than SMART and DDOT?)

[MikeM]

Lewis [[Bill) M. Dickens: Removing I-375 an urban planning accident waiting to happen

[Wesley Mouch]

Lewis [[Bill) M. Dickens: Removing I-375 an urban planning accident waiting to happen

I don't agree with everything, but some good points made. Thanks for posting, MM.

Having stepped back and read that, it reminds me that while I think we would be better off with boulevards rather than freeways in general near the urban core, this probably isn't the place to spend money. Its not so bad as to offend. A shift of I75 thru traffic to I94 or if we can't get our heads around that, a realignment id I75 thru Brewster that's covered for a significant part would do more to bring downtown and midtown together. Have you ever walked across any pedestrial bridge across Fisher near Woodward? Well, you haven't cause they don't exist. And walking those bridges on the sidewalks is about as pleasant as a root canal.

Summary -- nice idea the 375 boulevard, but let's push for more urgent changes like making the new I94 partly covered or at least really wide bridges with some sound and visual buffers.

[canuck]

The best solution to this problem isn't a trickle-down solution of transit for all, it would be a vibrant Detroit where people are willing to live. If you can't get to your job, then move. If your employer can't find workers, they'll pay more. Its the market. It solves problems better than bureaucrats who invariably try to engineer things to benefit the powerful. The solution isn't more rules -- its less.

I'm OK with transit and roads. They're necessary. But right now our problem isn't roads to Wixom, its good roads in Detroit. We have enough. Let's just make them work as well as possible.

Now busses on the other hand, we need more and better management. And we fight over who will control them with two different systems. Insanity. Why? Because each group mistrusts the other for good reason. Solution... take away the government monopoly on transportation. Here's something anyone could start. Register with city hall for a modest fee. Get inspected for a modest fee. And start driving your van around charging fares printed in big letters on the side of your van. Transit problem solved. [[Well, not completely -- but could it be worse than SMART and DDOT?)

Maybe privately funded transit system is a part of the solution but you know how fast it will hit the "subsidy bus" and other hurdles once it hits the road.

I do believe systems are meant to be universal and indeed they are becoming more so as time advances. Subway and train stations are equipped with more elevators, buses can kneel for handicapped and can carry bikes, etc...

The problem with highways is that unless there are tollways, nobody feels the cost to the user is on a daily basis whereas busses are an obvious extraneous cost to the non-user or occasional one. I am moving to a house in the city very close to our downtown and I relish the thought that I wont be wasting 400 hours a year in traffic when I could be making paper dolls or lentil fruitcakes.
The main highway into DT is going to be demolished and rebuilt soon [[A-720) and I will have avoided the ensuing nightmares for the next seven years.

[DetroitPlanner]

Lewis [[Bill) M. Dickens: Removing I-375 an urban planning accident waiting to happen

What do you feel about this? I fell asleep reading it. I also looked up the guy on goog;e and found some obscure thing about him criticizing Robert Bobb and saying he does shoddy work to give the money to Romney! Take it for what its worth, I never heard of him before.

[DetroitPlanner]

Novi had little "inherent potential," but Ferndale and RO did. Conversely, the hearts of entire communities were ripped out in Detroit when the freeways were put in. Impact on the areas the freeways will affect are seldom put into consideration unless its a wealthy community or, in the case of 696, a very well organized group.

I grew up at W Chicago and the Southfield Freeway. Everything in my neighborhood was find long after the freeway was built. What really killed it was lack of investment in the police and fire departments.

[Cliffy]

Novi had little "inherent potential," but Ferndale and RO did. Conversely, the hearts of entire communities were ripped out in Detroit when the freeways were put in. Impact on the areas the freeways will affect are seldom put into consideration unless its a wealthy community or, in the case of 696, a very well organized group.

Yeah, it ripped the heart out so everyone started burning everything, killing people and robbing everything in sight. It was the freeways that caused this. Give me a break.

[Gistok]

I grew up at W Chicago and the Southfield Freeway. Everything in my neighborhood was find long after the freeway was built. What really killed it was lack of investment in the police and fire departments.

Amen to that!! I grew up in the far east side near Balduck Park, and the area was fine for many decades after I-94 went thru in 1960. It took a combination of poor city services, Engler's removal of city residency and the Mortgage Meltdown to complete the migration of the "home owning" middle class out of that neighborhood.

[deep6six]

This "plan" is patently absurd. It's based on studies that are more than 15 years old. Since then, we've seen a tripling in fuel prices and reductions in vehicle-miles of driving. The only thing that highway widening achieves is long-term increases in congestion, and fattened wallets of highway contractors.

No money for public transit, but billions available for outdated and unnecessary freeway widenings? Bien sur!

Propose renaming MDOT to the Michigan Department of Nostalgia.

Could not agree more. Detroit's reluctance to move into the modern age will be it's undoing. Insane.

There's no way Detroit will ever compete with other modern cities for the brightest talent if we don't have modern shit! A commitment to modern transportation, light rail would be a game changer.

[Jason]

Lewis [[Bill) M. Dickens: Removing I-375 an urban planning accident waiting to happen

All that beautiful freeway, and beautiful grass! And while I do like the way that Detroit's freeways neatly delineate the neighborhoods downtown I don't think that the freeway's symmetry is "key to Detroit’s urban form and, by extension, Detroit’s unique visual brand".

"It beautifully incorporates clever design features known to attenuate the excessive sounds of highways." And as he explains, the clever design features are... grass embankments... Great to know that Detroit is on the cutting edge of civil engineering with its grass embankments!


Anyway, the fact of the matter is that 375 doesn't get enough traffic to justify itself. If the cost of removal is less than the cost of rebuilding it + future maintenance, then it should be surfaced.

Here's a map of downtown's traffic: http://mdotcf.state.mi.us/public/map...wn_Detroit.pdf
And the region's for context: http://mdotcf.state.mi.us/public/map...Metro_Area.pdf

Also for comparison, since it's not on the maps, Jefferson in rivertown gets about 25,000.
Larned east of Rivard seems to get about 12,000 [[it gets 6,000 going west, but eastbound isn't listed)

And I agree with the other posters who've said that the dynamism and connectivity of the overall system is more important than the raw number of lanes. I think if 375 was better connected with gratiot, jefferson, and the other surface streets.

I also think it would help a lot if the streets on the east side of downtown were cleaned up. It's a maze of one way streets that dead end or are temporarily two way streets. Brush street is the only one that goes all the way from jefferson to midtown, but half of it is one way. Lafeyette and beaubien could be more useful streets if it weren't for their awkward transitions between two way boulevards and one way streets. It's a big mess imo.

[Bham1982]

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that 375 doesn't get enough traffic to justify itself. If the cost of removal is less than the cost of rebuilding it + future maintenance, then it should be surfaced.

Using this standard, probably no transit on earth can be justified.