Troy/Birmngham Transit Center: A new era for Oakland County and Detroit?

**Danny** · June-22-09, 11:04 AM

L.B. Patterson, "The mayor of White Detroit" and regionalists wanted desperately to move their city forward. Challenging Black Detroit leaders and mocking their slothiness with the proposal of light rail transit. When I see development, I'll believe it.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Neda Soltani wants change. Detroit and suburbs need to change in order to have regionalism.

**Detroit Stylin** · June-22-09, 11:19 AM

ummmm......ok

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-09, 11:49 AM

Actually, you see these sorts of efforts to retrofit car-centric office parks more commonly these days. Look at efforts to outfit Tyson's Corners with sidewalks and transit stops.

This article makes an interesting point:

http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2008...ented_d_1.html

"Tysons faces special challenges because of its street pattern, responsible for the lunch hour rush in which 115,000 workers drive less than a mile for a sandwich. Tysons lacks through streets and sidewalks and traffic is funneled onto a few wide boulevards, where waiting for a left turn signal would test Job’s patience. Tysons is also plagued with cloverleaf highway access ramps. So it’s important that planners begin to address the problems associated with the street network immediately so that the appropriate type of network is in place before new developments are built."

As to whether this will solve any problems is anybody's guess. From an urban planning standpoint, Troy's main problem is that it has no center, no downtown, no coherent urban framework or historic hub to hang stuff on. It doesn't have the "bones."

**Irvine Laird** · June-22-09, 12:14 PM

I believe mass public transit will ultimately benefit everyone and that ridership will increase among people of all income brackets.

In the short-term, however, those who stand to benefit the most from public transit are persons in the low-income bracket.

My point is that advocates of mass public transit [[such as TRU) will have to put most of their effort into persuading middle and upper income persons to support a system that may not appear to be of much personal value in the near-term. In some cases, transit advocates may face plain opposition from the NIMBY crowd.

I think it takes guts for community leaders in Birmingham and Troy to advocate transit in area where the majority of people probably think they don't need it.

crawford · June-22-09, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Irvine Laird

I think it takes guts for community leaders in Birmingham and Troy to advocate transit in area where the majority of people probably think they don't need it.

It will be very interesting if these proposals advance to the stage of final decisionmaking.

My brother lives in Bham, and while it is generally a somewhat progressive community, it is also rather stuffy and elitist, and I have a hard time imagining they will tax themselves to enable poor people to visit their commnuity.

Basically everyone in Bham has a car, and there's no real direct need for transit. The bus is used by some lower-wage workers in downtown Bham. An increase in transit along the Woodward corridor almost guarantees more poor and black people coming to Bham. I don't know if people are willing to pay more out of their paycheck for this "privilege".

A recent example: downtown Bham has a multplex cinema called the Palladium. This theater is frequented by lots of rowdy teenagers on weekends, many of whom are African American. There have been a few large-scale brawls between rival groups of teenagers outside on the street, while waiting for or after the show.

A disproportionate number of these brawls involved African Americans, including a stabbing incident. Given than Bham has almost no blacks, it's fair to say that these moviegoers are not from the community, and probably came from points south [[Detroit, Southfield, Oak Park). I think it's also fair to say that increased transit options could increase the number of such teenaged visitors.

I could see this Palladium theatre issue playing a big role in the community sentiments for transit.

DetroitDad · June-22-09, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

It will be very interesting if these proposals advance to the stage of final decisionmaking.

My brother lives in Bham, and while it is generally a somewhat progressive community, it is also rather stuffy and elitist, and I have a hard time imagining they will tax themselves to enable poor people to visit their commnuity.

Basically everyone in Bham has a car, and there's no real direct need for transit. The bus is used by some lower-wage workers in downtown Bham. An increase in transit along the Woodward corridor almost guarantees more poor and black people coming to Bham. I don't know if people are willing to pay more out of their paycheck for this "privilege".

A recent example: downtown Bham has a multplex cinema called the Palladium. This theater is frequented by lots of rowdy teenagers on weekends, many of whom are African American. There have been a few large-scale brawls between rival groups of teenagers outside on the street, while waiting for or after the show.

A disproportionate number of these brawls involved African Americans, including a stabbing incident. Given than Bham has almost no blacks, it's fair to say that these moviegoers are not from the community, and probably came from points south [[Detroit, Southfield, Oak Park). I think it's also fair to say that increased transit options could increase the number of such teenaged visitors.

I could see this Palladium theatre issue playing a big role in the community sentiments for transit.

Is Bham what the kids are calling Birmingham these days? The news started calling the old hip nickname; "The Birm". You know kids, once the news and parents start using it, it's not hip anymore.

Downtown Detroit needs something like that for the kids, what do you think sounds catchy? D-Town? The Troit? Day Twa? Shadyside [[Eminem is still popular)? Hipville U.S.A.?

Maybe just Downtown works? Maybe I'm getting to old to come up with a hip name.

**ASR89** · June-22-09, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

why do the suburbs get everything. that money should be diverted to us.....none of these suburbs mean a thing without detroit.....without us, they would be nothing

"Patteson doesnt speak for me, and I am against regionalism. They would be NOTHING without the city of Detroit "

Monica Conyers, is that you?

**scuola** · June-22-09, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

why do the suburbs get everything. that money should be diverted to us.....none of these suburbs mean a thing without detroit.....without us, they would be nothing

But Suburban Detroit hasn't had a strong Urban Detroit for generations and yet they've done beautifully: Troy, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, & Dearborn all have bustling financial, entertainment, and residential venues that would be at home in ANY metropolitan area in the entire country. Suburban Detroit needs this rail line to help them connect to each other as much as to connect to Urban Detroit. Regionalism works both ways. It's not just about handing over Suburban Detroit tax money over to Urban Detroit as a handout in pitty of them. Rather, regionalism should be about doing what's best for the region--and that means spending lots of money in Suburban Detroit as well.

**Mackinaw** · June-22-09, 07:10 PM

I've never heard bustling and Troy in the same line.

I'll be surprised if this happens.

Can anyone report on the level of collaboration between the people planning this OC stuff and those overseeing the CoD Woodward Light Rail?

I too think it is bogus that the OC transit corridor is NOT Woodward Ave.

**iheartthed** · June-22-09, 08:22 PM

People have been calling Birmingham "Bham" since I was in high school. They got it from the more famous Birmingham down south, which is also referred to as "Bham"...

DetroitDad · June-22-09, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by scuola

But Suburban Detroit hasn't had a strong Urban Detroit for generations and yet they've done beautifully: Troy, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, & Dearborn all have bustling financial, entertainment, and residential venues that would be at home in ANY metropolitan area in the entire country. Suburban Detroit needs this rail line to help them connect to each other as much as to connect to Urban Detroit. Regionalism works both ways. It's not just about handing over Suburban Detroit tax money over to Urban Detroit as a handout in pitty of them. Rather, regionalism should be about doing what's best for the region--and that means spending lots of money in Suburban Detroit as well.

Of course, the outer suburbs and exurbs are the epitome of waste and unsustainability, so if it was about the region, the region would decide to eliminate those areas and do things to repopulate and activate the old small town centers and downtowns in both the city and inner ring suburbs. You know, in a perfect world anyway, where Brooks or any other outer ring suburbanite really was able to take a step back and look at the region.

**pkbroch** · June-22-09, 08:36 PM

Transit, trains and all the debate. The folks on Yes Detroit talk about better train, i.e Amtrak stations. There is a need for bigger train, Amtrak stations. Amtrak is so full of reservations that of you book 60 days in advance for the train to Chicago via the Pomtiac to Chicago route they are sold out in business with limited seating on regular class.

If you check August 21, to August 24 all three trains a day are almost reserved. We leave from Dearborn station, they have a brick and morter station and we arrive in Union Station in Chicago. No airlines hassle, no stopping us from carrying a bottle of water, no overpriced cabs from airports. You can take public transport from Union Station or a taxi. Parking at hotels in Chicago is $$$. Taxis are reqsonable, buses are great, El is so good.

I sound like an advertisement for Chicago, but next to Detroit it's my kind of town.

**iheartthed** · June-22-09, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by scuola

But Suburban Detroit hasn't had a strong Urban Detroit for generations and yet they've done beautifully: Troy, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, & Dearborn all have bustling financial, entertainment, and residential venues that would be at home in ANY metropolitan area in the entire country. Suburban Detroit needs this rail line to help them connect to each other as much as to connect to Urban Detroit. Regionalism works both ways. It's not just about handing over Suburban Detroit tax money over to Urban Detroit as a handout in pitty of them. Rather, regionalism should be about doing what's best for the region--and that means spending lots of money in Suburban Detroit as well.

Have they done beautifully? Last I checked, Michigan's unemployment rate was the highest in the nation and the Detroit area was dead last by measure of economic growth [[even behind Cleveland, whose tourism slogan is "at least we're not Detroit"). Since the suburbs are the economic engine of the area, that means the suburbs must be doing a pretty shitty job... compared to all of the other metropolitan areas in the entire country.

ETA: Not only does Michigan currently have the highest unemployment rate in the country, but it has had the highest unemployment rate for 25 of the past 26 months. That's more than two years of the suburbs doing just "beautifully" without a strong urban core.

crawford · June-22-09, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by pkbroch

Taxis are reqsonable, buses are great, El is so good.

I sound like an advertisement for Chicago, but next to Detroit it's my kind of town.

Chicago actually has pretty mediocre transit.

It sucks compared to New York or basically all non-American cities, but it looks good in comparison to Detroit's non-transit.

crawford · June-22-09, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

ETA: Not only does Michigan currently have the highest unemployment rate in the country, but it has had the highest unemployment rate for 25 of the past 26 months. That's more than two years of the suburbs doing just "beautifully" without a strong urban core.

You're confusing correlation and causation.

Michigan had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation during the late 1990's and early 00's, but I certainly wouldn't attribute that to the sprawled built environment.

Similarly, it's ridiculous to blame high unemployment on sprawl, as if the metro area's problems aren't almost entirely linked to the auto industry's fortunes.

**iheartthed** · June-22-09, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by crawford

You're confusing correlation and causation.

Michigan had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation during the late 1990's and early 00's, but I certainly wouldn't attribute that to the sprawled built environment.

Similarly, it's ridiculous to blame high unemployment on sprawl, as if the metro area's problems aren't almost entirely linked to the auto industry's fortunes.

Michigan's unemployment rate has been substantially high for most of the past decade.

But that is beside the point. Correlation and causation are one and the same here, because Michigan's problem is that it cannot attract any type of industry besides auto related business -- or more specifically, domestic auto related business. Even Volkswagen decided that it would rather be located in the metropolitan D.C. area rather than Oakland County!

Coincidentally, the Metropolitan D.C. area is home to the second most heavily used public transportation system in the country. Correlate or causate whatever you please from that. But metropolitan Detroit is proven to be an unattractive place for most non-manufacturing related industry... And even that isn't guaranteed anymore. Other older manufacturing hubs like Chicago, Boston, NYC, etc. have redefined themselves as intellectual hubs. But Metro Detroit hasn't been able to do so. And you're being disingenuous if you can't acknowledge that the complete neglect of the urban core is a big reason as to why...

**mwilbert** · June-24-09, 02:45 PM

Metropolitan area population basically stable [[probably down when 2010 Census is done) over past 40 years while the US population has risen about 50% doesn't exactly scream "SUCCESS".

I'm happy when people realize that if they continue doing what they've been doing they are not going to end up in a good place. That is true at all levels--I'd be really happy to see the city do more intelligent things, and I'm happy to see signs of intelligent life in Oakland County too. Just because it is a lot better off than the City of Detroit doesn't mean it isn't on a pretty bad trajectory.

**Michele_Hodges** · June-25-09, 11:50 AM

Being part of the effort to secure an intermodal transit center in Birmingham/Troy, I find the spirited debate on this topic intriguing, and informative. The posts are helpful as we move forward with the effort. We believe in the Detroit Region, and our goal is to make a substantive contribution to its health and economic vitality, with transit and roads an important part of the solution. Working with our Birmingham colleagues, and reaching out to other stakeholders [[including the City of Detroit, Wayne County, DRMT, TRU, SEMCOG, etc.), has demonstrated what can occur when collaboration is at the core. We are fortunate to have found such great partners, and we look forward to great success for Detroit, and its Region. We head to Washington next week, so wish us luck.

**Irvine Laird** · June-25-09, 01:33 PM

Welcome to the forum, Michele. Buckle up.

**professorscott** · June-25-09, 01:53 PM

Welcome, Michele. I've seen Troy's Big Beaver Corridor Redevelopment Plan, and was impressed. I think one of the ways to get the region cooperating is to get pieces of the region cooperating, and this is certainly an excellent example of that, as is the Aerotropolis idea in western Wayne County.

We do transit planning at the U. by the way, if you're interested

Prof. Scott

**Novine** · June-25-09, 04:00 PM

"as is the Aerotropolis idea in western Wayne County"

Sprawlopolis? We don't have enough infrastructure invested in SE Michigan so let's funnel tax dollars into another 25,000 acres of it, a good chunk of which is vacant land or farmland. The Prof has bought into Ficano's pipe dream. There are ways to leverage the airport for regional benefit but building out 25,000 acres with new development isn't one of them.

**dcmorrison12** · June-25-09, 04:05 PM

Is this station going to be across the street from the Target/Home Depot/ Kroger strip mall? On coolidge, near maple

**Novine** · June-25-09, 07:00 PM

Map of station area

**tangerine** · June-29-09, 12:38 AM

The opposition to transit is definitely race based. The white's don't want Blacks coming in. I hate to say it, but I've heard people admit it to me quite openly many dozens of times since I began exploring this issue.

What's kind of pathetic is the idea that criminals would use the train to come rob you. They drive. What a train would do is provide economic opportunity, potentially reducing the pool of people who resort to crime.

I think if you built the trains, development over the next several decades would follow the lines, so that the trains would be much more practical over time.