"Frank Rizzo"

[JVB]

Dude. To say "its all a bunch of white racists who took their money and ran" is simplistic. To say that the city lost most of its residents of means, investment, industry, commercial businesses, jobs and wealth is a fact. And that it was surrounded by former residents who'd taken their wealth away from the city and then blamed the city for its condition -- all while ensuring not a red cent of their tax money went to the city.

That's a fact, man. That's where Rizzo comes in. Rizzo keeps peddling myths. Rizzo has a mythological view of history. "They did that. Those animals down there ruined that city. Let them live in that hellhole."

It doesn't get any more "simplistic" than that.

Just out of curiosity, what is the black version of Rizzo called?

[p69rrh51]

Dude. To say "its all a bunch of white racists who took their money and ran" is simplistic. To say that the city lost most of its residents of means, investment, industry, commercial businesses, jobs and wealth is a fact. And that it was surrounded by former residents who'd taken their wealth away from the city and then blamed the city for its condition -- all while ensuring not a red cent of their tax money went to the city.

That's a fact, man. That's where Rizzo comes in. Rizzo keeps peddling myths. Rizzo has a mythological view of history. "They did that. Those animals down there ruined that city. Let them live in that hellhole."

It doesn't get any more "simplistic" than that.

You are the one saying they picked up their toys and left not me, and I find that way to simplistic! And who is this bunch of white racists you keep going on about?

[Honky Tonk]

Just out of curiosity, what is the black version of Rizzo called?

I already asked that one, [[see post # 107, this thread), and caught a world of crap for it. Apparently all the racism is only one sided. No rich black people ever left the City for the 'burbs.

[JVB]

And who is this bunch of white racists you keep going on about?

They're in the barbershops.

[Detroitnerd]

You are the one saying they picked up their toys and left not me, and I find that way to simplistic!

Is that too simplistic? Well, I guess you should pick up a phone and call Dr. Thomas J. Sugrue, author of The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit. You should probably tell Dr. Sugrue that his whole thesis, which was heavily researched, and has received awards and become widely read, is mistaken. You tell him that his thesis is simplistic, and how, in several posts online, people have looked into their personal crystal balls and seen how disaster would have been averted if only the right leadership had been in place.

Next, you should probably call third-generation journalist and former Detroit reporter Scott Martelle, and tell him that the painstaking history he published this year, Detroit: A Biography, is too simplistic, and doesn't dovetail with your personal views on what happened in Detroit.

After that, you should probably next go on to disputing the hard data of the census bureau, which, apparently without consulting you, showed a history of people with means [[which then meant white people almost exclusively) leaving the city starting in the 1950s.

Now you have a big job ahead of you so get some sleep tonight.

And who is this bunch of white racists you keep going on about?

Racism has a long and stories history in Detroit. Overt racism. Nasty racism. Nowadays, a lot of the racism has been institutionalized up where it isn't seen. But in the old days it was at street level and ugly. Here's an old photo of the sentiments of a typical white Detroit community.

[JVB]

Detroitnerd, have you heard someone say there is no such thing as racists? Just like in the LA riots when businesses were only spared if they were "black owned". We all know racism exists on all sides, but not everyone is as racist as you seem to think.

[p69rrh51]

Is that too simplistic? Well, I guess you should pick up a phone and call Dr. Thomas J. Sugrue, author of The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit. You should probably tell Dr. Sugrue that his whole thesis, which was heavily researched, and has received awards and become widely read, is mistaken. You tell him that his thesis is simplistic, and how, in several posts online, people have looked into their personal crystal balls and seen how disaster would have been averted if only the right leadership had been in place.

Next, you should probably call third-generation journalist and former Detroit reporter Scott Martelle, and tell him that the painstaking history he published this year, Detroit: A Biography, is too simplistic, and doesn't dovetail with your personal views on what happened in Detroit.

After that, you should probably next go on to disputing the hard data of the census bureau, which, apparently without consulting you, showed a history of people with means [[which then meant white people almost exclusively) leaving the city starting in the 1950s.

Now you have a big job ahead of you so get some sleep tonight.



Racism has a long and stories history in Detroit. Overt racism. Nasty racism. Nowadays, a lot of the racism has been institutionalized up where it isn't seen. But in the old days it was at street level and ugly. Here's an old photo of the sentiments of a typical white Detroit community.

I read both authors interesting but rehashing the same old shit I have known for years and not quite really getting to the real heart of the matter. Also you do have your facts quite right. People started leaving the city the moment Henry Ford opened the Highland Park Plant in 1908 if I remember correctly. You still have not answered my question who in PARTICULAR are you calling a racist?

[Detroitnerd]

I read both authors interesting but rehashing the same old shit I have known for years and not quite really getting to the real heart of the matter

Hahahaha. You read those two books and thought it rehashed a bunch of stuff you already knew [[including Sugrue's groundbreaking, never before published research) and didn't get to the heart of the matter? Hahahahaha. That's rich, boy.

Also you do have your facts quite right. People started leaving the city the moment Henry Ford opened the Highland Park Plant in 1908 if I remember correctly.

Maybe a poor choice of words there. You can trace the beginning of Detroit's population decline to the 1950s. I think you know exactly what I mean and are being a little pedantic there, frankly.

You still have not answered my question who in PARTICULAR are you calling a racist?

I'm not calling anybody a racist except Frank Rizzo. He's your archetypal modern-day suburban white racist.

[p69rrh51]

Hahahaha. You read those two books and thought it rehashed a bunch of stuff you already knew [[including Sugrue's groundbreaking, never before published research) and didn't get to the heart of the matter? Hahahahaha. That's rich, boy.



Maybe a poor choice of words there. You can trace the beginning of Detroit's population decline to the 1950s. I think you know exactly what I mean and are being a little pedantic there, frankly.



I'm not calling anybody a racist except Frank Rizzo. He's your archetypal modern-day suburban white racist.

My goof on the book-you got me, but I have a feeling the author if they existed would be spouting the same drivel you are! But then you are rehashing the same old BS I heard in the urban planning classes I was taking when I was at WSU 30+ years ago, and by the way living in the burbs does not make one a racist! If it did you would have to consider yourself one too.

[JVB]

I'm not calling anybody a racist except Frank Rizzo. He's your archetypal modern-day suburban white racist.

At least give us some percentages or something. You keep beating this "Frank Rizzo" concept to death, what does he represent? 10% of the suburbanites? 25%? 50%?

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, have you heard someone say there is no such thing as racists?

What does that mean?

Just like in the LA riots when businesses were only spared if they were "black owned". We all know racism exists on all sides,

Hahaha. You seem like you don't understand racism. See, what makes white supremacy so horrible is that whites are the majority. Whites have the most power. People of color have historically had very little power. Historically, in the United States, white racists have been free to get together and essentially declare a pogrom against black people, lynching them, torturing them, killing them, marauding and terrifying their communities.

That's just violence. Individual racism means blacks are often last hired, first fired. It means they don't have access to the same quality of life when a landlord decides he won't rent to blacks. It means not having the same job opportunities when a boss decides not to hire blacks. It means social rejection when a group of children call a black child names and ostracize him.

Now, frankly, most white people are not used to seeing all the privilege they get in their day-to-day life. They don't understand how hard, even today, it is for the black community in the United States. Similarly, I can believe that there are those people, such as yourself, who don't see the racism that exists around them.

But given that naivete, you must understand, you cannot equate white supremacy with a terrified businessperson writing "black owned" on his storefront hoping to be spared. Black racism? When has black racism stopped you from getting a job? When has black racism ostracized you from your would-be peers? When has black racism ended in you going to jail? When has black racism done anything to affect you? If at all?

but not everyone is as racist as you seem to think.

Maybe not. There are many ways in which white racism works. It works institutionally. You may say you're not a racist, but the police you employ probably engage in some form of racial profiling. The insurance agency that insures your home or car may not insure a home or car in a neighborhood that's predominantly black. The courts may find you have some cocaine in your pocket and give you a light sentence, but the same amount of crack would involve mandatory minimum sentencing.

Of course, the system doesn't necessarily appear racist. The white homeowner calls the police and says there's a "suspicious-looking man" walking down the street. The cop comes and engages in "profiling." Or the white real estate agent steers a black couple looking to buy a home away from the Rizzos, to a neighborhood within the redline. And, right in the thick of it, is Frank Fucking Rizzo, talking about his "home values" his "good schools" and all the "families" in his neighborhood.

[Detroitnerd]

My goof on the book-you got me, but I have a feeling the author if they existed would be spouting the same drivel you are!

It's not drivel. Really, you should consider cracking your mind open and thinking a little bit about our city and its history.

But then you are rehashing the same old BS I heard in the urban planning classes I was taking when I was at WSU 30+ years ago

Oh, now I understand. It's not that you really have anything to offer as far as scholarship. You've had the facts about Detroit laid out for you before and you rejected them then. It must have conflicted with your ideology and so you said it was bullshit, closed your eyes and decided to never again examine the history of the city. Nice.

So, if you're not interested in examining the history of your city or studying the ins and outs of what happened, why are you so determined to talk about it? You're telling me you've rejected learning about the sociopolitical makeup of the city for more than 30 years [["bullshit") and now you want to educate somebody who has read widely on the subject while you haven't?

Admit it, man. You don't like the new scholarship on Detroit because it challenges your prejudices.

and by the way living in the burbs does not make one a racist! If it did you would have to consider yourself one too.

Yeah, um, I challenge you to find where I said that you are racist if you are living in the suburbs.

[p69rrh51]

What does that mean?



Hahaha. You seem like you don't understand racism. See, what makes white supremacy so horrible is that whites are the majority. Whites have the most power. People of color have historically had very little power. Historically, in the United States, white racists have been free to get together and essentially declare a pogrom against black people, lynching them, torturing them, killing them, marauding and terrifying their communities.

That's just violence. Individual racism means blacks are often last hired, first fired. It means they don't have access to the same quality of life when a landlord decides he won't rent to blacks. It means not having the same job opportunities when a boss decides not to hire blacks. It means social rejection when a group of children call a black child names and ostracize him.

Now, frankly, most white people are not used to seeing all the privilege they get in their day-to-day life. They don't understand how hard, even today, it is for the black community in the United States. Similarly, I can believe that there are those people, such as yourself, who don't see the racism that exists around them.

But given that naivete, you must understand, you cannot equate white supremacy with a terrified businessperson writing "black owned" on his storefront hoping to be spared. Black racism? When has black racism stopped you from getting a job? When has black racism ostracized you from your would-be peers? When has black racism ended in you going to jail? When has black racism done anything to affect you? If at all?



Maybe not. There are many ways in which white racism works. It works institutionally. You may say you're not a racist, but the police you employ probably engage in some form of racial profiling. The insurance agency that insures your home or car may not insure a home or car in a neighborhood that's predominantly black. The courts may find you have some cocaine in your pocket and give you a light sentence, but the same amount of crack would involve mandatory minimum sentencing.

Of course, the system doesn't necessarily appear racist. The white homeowner calls the police and says there's a "suspicious-looking man" walking down the street. The cop comes and engages in "profiling." Or the white real estate agent steers a black couple looking to buy a home away from the Rizzos, to a neighborhood within the redline. And, right in the thick of it, is Frank Fucking Rizzo, talking about his "home values" his "good schools" and all the "families" in his neighborhood.

Reality check-the 1950's have been over for almost 53 years! I have several minority neighbors in my "Grosse Pointe" neighborhood and they are as good a neighbor anyone could ask for. I feel a little safer as one of my new neighbor and his wife are both officers in the US Army[[they also took a run down Aladdin kit house and have done a terrific job of restoring it). Home values in the area have been climbing even though your 1950's attitude would suggest they would not!
And to through a curve ball out there, many residents of the City of Detroit would not have lost their homes if redlining had been in effect during the mortgage meltdown, what do you have say about that?

[Detroitnerd]

Reality check-the 1950's have been over for almost 53 years! I have several minority neighbors in my "Grosse Pointe" neighborhood and they are as good a neighbor anyone could ask for. I feel a little safer as one of my new neighbors and his wife are both officers in the US Army[[they also took a run down Aladdin kit house and have done a terrific job of restoring it). Home values in the area have been climbing even though your 1950's attitude would suggest they would not!

Hahaha. "My 1950s attitude." That's funny. Oh, well, I guess all that white racism is over because, heh, you know, you have several "minority" neighbors in your "Grosse Pointe" neighborhood. Too bad, though, that your Grosse Pointe neighbors were so opposed to being "schools of choice" for Detroit students. That would have shown some gumption, to let Detroit kids go to Grosse Pointe schools. But I'm sure that wasn't racist, you know. After all, you have Sad Sack and Beetle Bailey next door.

No, that school fight is proof yet that white racism, expressed as the fear and loathing of blacks, lives on. Frank Rizzo lives. Frank Rizzo is alive and well out there -- and smiling. And he smiles his heartiest when people say racism doesn't exist anymore.

[p69rrh51]

Hahaha. "My 1950s attitude." That's funny. Oh, well, I guess all that white racism is over because, heh, you know, you have several "minority" neighbors in your "Grosse Pointe" neighborhood. Too bad, though, that your Grosse Pointe neighbors were so opposed to being "schools of choice" for Detroit students. That would have shown some gumption, to let Detroit kids go to Grosse Pointe schools. But I'm sure that wasn't racist, you know. After all, you have Sad Sack and Beetle Bailey next door.

No, that school fight is proof yet that white racism, expressed as the fear and loathing of blacks, lives on. Frank Rizzo lives. Frank Rizzo is alive and well out there -- and smiling. And he smiles his heartiest when people say racism doesn't exist anymore.

I had a feeling you would come back with the schools. You should drive by Grosse Pointe South or North sometime there area not just a few minorities there! You are probably ignorant that part of GP Schools are in Harper Woods. Many minority parents move to the more affordable housing but get the better school system. There is no need for us to open the schools as they are quite accessible to those who have a clue! But then I was not opposed to school of choice per se. I thought there should be entrance exams. If we were going to open up the schools I wanted to take the best and brightest, but then that is the Frank Rizzo in me!

[JVB]

Maybe not. There are many ways in which white racism works. It works institutionally. You may say you're not a racist, but the police you employ probably engage in some form of racial profiling.

If a suspect is black, I would imagine they'll be looking for a black suspect. If the suspect is white, I would imagine they'll be looking for a white suspect. Far be it from me to defend the police though, after all I get profiled by black cops in Detroit any time I go back to my old neighborhood. Must be looking for drugs after all, right?

The insurance agency that insures your home or car may not insure a home or car in a neighborhood that's predominantly black.

Insurance companies base everything off of actuarial tables that have nothing to do with demographics. I know this for a fact. They do factor in crime though, as they should. If you owned an insurance company, would you charge the same to insure a home or car in Detroit as you would in Royal Oak? The fact is, there is more crime in Detroit so it will cost more to insure. If Detroit were 100% black with zero crime they would have the lowest rates in the country. That's how insurance works.

The courts may find you have some cocaine in your pocket and give you a light sentence, but the same amount of crack would involve mandatory minimum sentencing.

You can thank the Congressional Black Caucus for that. They are the ones that requested stiffer sentences for crack after the inner cities were decimated in the 80's by the crack epidemic. But just to be fair, meth [[primarily a white drug) carries even stiffer penalties than crack does. How do you explain that?

[p69rrh51]

What does that mean?



Hahaha. You seem like you don't understand racism. See, what makes white supremacy so horrible is that whites are the majority. Whites have the most power. People of color have historically had very little power. Historically, in the United States, white racists have been free to get together and essentially declare a pogrom against black people, lynching them, torturing them, killing them, marauding and terrifying their communities.

That's just violence. Individual racism means blacks are often last hired, first fired. It means they don't have access to the same quality of life when a landlord decides he won't rent to blacks. It means not having the same job opportunities when a boss decides not to hire blacks. It means social rejection when a group of children call a black child names and ostracize him.

Now, frankly, most white people are not used to seeing all the privilege they get in their day-to-day life. They don't understand how hard, even today, it is for the black community in the United States. Similarly, I can believe that there are those people, such as yourself, who don't see the racism that exists around them.

But given that naivete, you must understand, you cannot equate white supremacy with a terrified businessperson writing "black owned" on his storefront hoping to be spared. Black racism? When has black racism stopped you from getting a job? When has black racism ostracized you from your would-be peers? When has black racism ended in you going to jail? When has black racism done anything to affect you? If at all?



Maybe not. There are many ways in which white racism works. It works institutionally. You may say you're not a racist, but the police you employ probably engage in some form of racial profiling. The insurance agency that insures your home or car may not insure a home or car in a neighborhood that's predominantly black. The courts may find you have some cocaine in your pocket and give you a light sentence, but the same amount of crack would involve mandatory minimum sentencing.

Of course, the system doesn't necessarily appear racist. The white homeowner calls the police and says there's a "suspicious-looking man" walking down the street. The cop comes and engages in "profiling." Or the white real estate agent steers a black couple looking to buy a home away from the Rizzos, to a neighborhood within the redline. And, right in the thick of it, is Frank Fucking Rizzo, talking about his "home values" his "good schools" and all the "families" in his neighborhood.

I am not naive at all but you need little brush up on the suburbs. As too business' having to say they were black owned I cannot speak to that but I can equate to the woman who was my family's housekeeper and my the same for my wife's housekeeper both of whom had death marks painted in front of their homes during the 1967 riots only because they worked for white families!

[canuck]

I like your Frank Rizzo, Detroitnerd. Some people react to him the way they reacted to Archie Bunker when he first appeared way back in the seventies.
A lot of folks wanted him shut up.

[Detroitnerd]

I like your Frank Rizzo, Detroitnerd. Some people react to him the way they reacted to Archie Bunker when he first appeared way back in the seventies.
A lot of folks wanted him shut up.

Thanks, Canuck. Frankly, I've never seen the right-wing so whiplashed over an issue like race. Just all over the place. Whites aren't racist anymore. There is no such thing as institutional racism. But blacks are very racist! Which justifies the white racism, which doesn't exist. It's a patchwork of denial, rage, fear and shame, all bound together with rationalization, anecdotal claptrap and social amnesia.

There are good people out there fighting white racism, which often manifests itself in metro Detroit as fear and loathing of black people and moving ever farther away from the perceived problem.

Then there are people who deny white racism exists at all. After all, if something doesn't exist, how can you fight it? You get to say that those who are against it are just tilting at windmills. It's about "crime" and "home values" and "good schools," you understand.

And Frank Rizzo stands out on his lawn and smiles.

[Jimaz]

... It's a patchwork of denial, rage, fear and shame, all bound together with rationalization, anecdotal claptrap and social amnesia....

Interesting observations but I'm not so sure about the shame emotion. It might be more like shamelessness. If pride can be taken as the opposite of shame, I think you might even find an overcompensating amount of pride in the mix — to repress the too-painful-to-acknowledge underlying shame. Okay, maybe that's what you meant by shame.

I'm having trouble taking this serious thread seriously because the name "Frank Rizzo" conjures up the Jerky Boys and I just have to laugh.

Side note: Shelby Township recently changed their trash hauling service from Allied Waste to Rizzo! I'm not making that up. LOL!

[Detroitnerd]

Interesting observations but I'm not so sure about the shame emotion. It might be more like shamelessness. If pride can be taken as the opposite of shame, I think you might even find an overcompensating amount of pride in mix — to repress the too-painful-to-acknowledge underlying shame. Okay, maybe that's what you meant by shame.

Yeah, maybe I could have left shame out. Psychologically speaking, though, rage can be described as a way of disguising shame with anger.

I'm having trouble taking this serious thread seriously because the name "Frank Rizzo" conjures up the Jerky Boys and I just have to laugh.

I know, right? I still hear him talking like that. "Hey, sizzle-chest!"

Side note: Shelby Township recently changed their trash service from Allied Waste to Rizzo! I'm not making that up. LOL!

"Rizzos keep the trash off your lawn."

[TKshreve]

LOWELL -

Please shut this hate filled, fear mongering, finger pointing, divisive, stereotypical, rant infested, racism-toned, knucklehead thread down please.

An attempt was made to have two way dialogue, and instead we have gotten nowhere, and I feel a lot less educated having read through most of it.

It is not even a sounding board, but a soap box for some here to throw trash at others. In the end, nobody will be around to pick it up.

[Det_ard]

Nah, leave it up. It does a pretty good job of showing where everyone's coming from. Of course, that may not be as beneficial to some as they think it is but its good to have it in black and white.

[JVB]

Thanks, Canuck. Frankly, I've never seen the right-wing so whiplashed over an issue like race. Just all over the place. Whites aren't racist anymore. There is no such thing as institutional racism. But blacks are very racist! Which justifies the white racism, which doesn't exist. It's a patchwork of denial, rage, fear and shame, all bound together with rationalization, anecdotal claptrap and social amnesia.

There are good people out there fighting white racism, which often manifests itself in metro Detroit as fear and loathing of black people and moving ever farther away from the perceived problem.

Then there are people who deny white racism exists at all. After all, if something doesn't exist, how can you fight it? You get to say that those who are against it are just tilting at windmills. It's about "crime" and "home values" and "good schools," you understand.

And Frank Rizzo stands out on his lawn and smiles.

I don't think anybody would deny there are white racists, and black racists too. I think where you meet resistance is when you try to characterize a large chunk [[what percentage we don't know because you never told us) of white suburbanites as racist simply because they made the decision to move to neighborhoods with less crime, better schools and stable property values. You imply [[whether you mean it or not), that if you moved to the suburbs it was probably to get away from "those people" ie. blacks. Are you surprised that would offend people? Are you surprised a parent that picks up roots to ensure that their kids don't have to go to a failed school system and deal with ever-present crime, would be offended at you typecasting their motivations?

I don't mean to attack you personally, but at least the people that moved to the suburbs stayed in the region, unlike you. For all your Detroit cheerleading and racial invective you sure got the hell out of Detroit quick didn't you? So now because you're back in the D you get to cast aspersions on all the white people that moved a few miles north to raise their families in relative comfort? That's cute.

I don't know where all your bitterness comes from but I wish you the best. It's OK that not everyone wants the same things as you. It doesn't make them racist and it doesn't mean they think less of you. It just means they want the best for their kids and they would like to be able to go on vacation once in awhile and not come home to a stripped house. Maybe that seems weird to you, and that's ok. Everyone's different, don't be scared of a little diversity of opinions.

[jt1]

If a suspect is black, I would imagine they'll be looking for a black suspect. If the suspect is white, I would imagine they'll be looking for a white suspect. Far be it from me to defend the police though, after all I get profiled by black cops in Detroit any time I go back to my old neighborhood. Must be looking for drugs after all, right?



Insurance companies base everything off of actuarial tables that have nothing to do with demographics. I know this for a fact. They do factor in crime though, as they should. If you owned an insurance company, would you charge the same to insure a home or car in Detroit as you would in Royal Oak? The fact is, there is more crime in Detroit so it will cost more to insure. If Detroit were 100% black with zero crime they would have the lowest rates in the country. That's how insurance works.



You can thank the Congressional Black Caucus for that. They are the ones that requested stiffer sentences for crack after the inner cities were decimated in the 80's by the crack epidemic. But just to be fair, meth [[primarily a white drug) carries even stiffer penalties than crack does. How do you explain that?

Best un-intentionally funny post ever. Cops and insurance companies: The bastions of integrity and color-blindedness.