Proposal 1 Fails. What Now?

[313WX]

CRC suggests Detroit's debt is 20 billion dollars
according to Gary Brown in June Detroit spent 360,000 more
per day than it brought in.
If 700K Detroiters each chipped in 28,500 it would just about
cover the city' debt.

And that's my point.

Most Detroiters don't make that in a year. How they're going to pay off up to $20 billion dollars in debt, even if every single service the city provided was cut, I have no idea.

[p69rrh51]

I'm glad the prop. 1 failed. Good riddance that EM dictatorship law. This will teach Gov. Snyder, the Nerd not to mess withDetroit and other city and school governments. Snyder will deal his business inLansing, Detroit and other city gov'ts and school board will do theirs.

I agree, but not that it was egg on Snyder's face. Now all entities will have to go through Bankruptcy Court. You think the EM was a dictator? You will be begging for an EM once a bankruptcy judge takes over! And that is exactly what the city of Detroit needs.

[Danny]

Danny, how has that been working out for the city/dps over the last few decades?

Very awful! It's was close the Detroit didn't get a EM. For Detroit Public Schools got Bob Roberts for EM and the DPS school board was dissolved for a while. Now they back and running the school system like a real government. Public Act 4 was Snyder's blunder. It violates the Bill of Rights in our constitution and state constitution of checks and balance of controlled governments. No elected official can't hire a type of manager to control or dissolve local and national government resources.

Hopefully the people the Benton Harbor, MI. will get their elected officials back soon. In the meantime all Michigan cities will have to rely the old Emergency Financial Manager or some bankruptcy judge from a land far far away to oversee and city gov'ts or school districts financial woes.

[poobert]

Once again, many Detroiters have shown they do not have the intelligence to consider this situation in its wholeness.

What the fuck? Yes, we're mental deficients. We do not deserve democracy. Oh and the people of Allen Park are such geniuses? Obviously it is reflected in their elected officials making such wise financial decisions. Now why oh why did you leave them out of your little tirade against inferior beings?

I voted to keep Prop 1, and I'm a Democrat and a Detroiter. That doesn't make my fellow citizens incapable of complex reasoning. I was strongly in favor of keeping it but while it is a solution it is a very flawed one. Now we are forced to look at other solutions. EMs did seem to be the easy way out - a little too easy. Financial trouble? Simply override local leaders and union contracts with some all-powerful appointee. Who's to say the appointee is going to be any more competant, and when they're not, who is going to give him the boot? The governor, who would then be admitting failure?

[guito13]

Very awful! It's was close the Detroit didn't get a EM. For Detroit Public Schools got Bob Roberts for EM and the DPS school board was dissolved for a while. Now they back and running the school system like a real government. Public Act 4 was Snyder's blunder. It violates the Bill of Rights in our constitution and state constitution of checks and balance of controlled governments. No elected official can't hire a type of manager to control or dissolve local and national government resources.

Hopefully the people the Benton Harbor, MI. will get their elected officials back soon. In the meantime all Michigan cities will have to rely the old Emergency Financial Manager or some bankruptcy judge from a land far far away to oversee and city gov'ts or school districts financial woes.

I dont think you understood my question. I mean how has your local elected officals been doing for your city/schools for the last few decades? You would rather stay on the path to utter destruction rather than have someone come in and have the power to actually make the tough choices NEEDED? Its obvoius that the current city government are ineffective and inept yet they keep getting elected.

[Wesley Mouch]

What the fuck? Yes, we're mental deficients. We do not deserve democracy. Oh and the people of Allen Park are such geniuses? Obviously it is reflected in their elected officials making such wise financial decisions. Now why oh why did you leave them out of your little tirade against inferior beings?

I voted to keep Prop 1, and I'm a Democrat and a Detroiter. That doesn't make my fellow citizens incapable of complex reasoning. I was strongly in favor of keeping it but while it is a solution it is a very flawed one. Now we are forced to look at other solutions. EMs did seem to be the easy way out - a little too easy. Financial trouble? Simply override local leaders and union contracts with some all-powerful appointee. Who's to say the appointee is going to be any more competant, and when they're not, who is going to give him the boot? The governor, who would then be admitting failure?

Your outrage is well placed. I thought the same thing reading the post.

The problems has little to do with 'Detroiters'. It has a lot to do with governmental and union structures that need to be modernized. Both entities cling to the past and are designed to resist change. I realize this is an isolated example -- but when your water board and your trade union can't eliminate 'horseshoer' from their job classifications -- it tells you the system isn't capable of change. [[And I know they didn't really sit around waiting for horses to come by -- this is merely a symbol of their inability to adapt.)

[rex]

Ha just think of the interest payments on 20 billion. The abandoned properties that consume resources instead of contributing tax revenue.

[Wesley Mouch]

CRC suggests Detroit's debt is 20 billion dollars
according to Gary Brown in June Detroit spent 360,000 more
per day than it brought in.
If 700K Detroiters each chipped in 28,500 it would just about
cover the city' debt.

Not to let Detroit off the hook, and I don't know any facts here, but I would assume that some/much of the debt is capital improvements by the water board [[DWSD). So debt payments are likely part of the charges for water to the citizens and more crucially to most residents in the metroplex [[via their local board who buy from Detroit.)

To decide if this is a reasonable debt load, you have to look at the revenues of the water board, as well as the value of the assets. If Detroit could sell the water system to Veolia for example, it might wipe out much/all of the debt. Whether that's the best move is a different discussion. But let's not assume that this is just 'credit card' debt -- it may be mortage debt on a house with increasing value.

[coracle]

I'm glad the prop. 1 failed. Good riddance that EM dictatorship law. This will teach Gov. Snyder, the Nerd not to mess withDetroit and other city and school governments. Snyder will deal his business inLansing, Detroit and other city gov'ts and school board will do theirs.

I'm sure the he would like nothing better than to not have to mess with Detroit. He can see what Detroit has produced in 50 years of messing with itself. I voted YES on Prop1 because as a Michigander I don't want to find myself footing the bill for Detroit's inability to control it's past and future spending. The dictatorship is coming from Detroit by refusing all help and holding out in the hope somebody will crack and give them the money forever.

[coracle]

And that's my point.

Most Detroiters don't make that in a year. How they're going to pay off up to $20 billion dollars in debt, even if every single service the city provided was cut, I have no idea.

That's easy 313. The rich will pay off their debt. [[as well as pay to keep them and pay their own debt off)
And don't forget 313 each one of them owes about $52,000 of the National Debt. But again the rich will pay their portion as well as their own.
Of course this not unique to Detroit; it's the same in every town and city in the land. I do hope the rich don't run out of money.

[Wheels]

What does this have to do with the Consent Agreement made in Detroit?

[313WX]

What does this have to do with the Consent Agreement made in Detroit?

That's a good question.I'm thinking because the meat and potatoes of the consent agreement is based in PA4.That said, wait until the lawsuits begin...

[Det_ard]

Oh, well. If Detroiters and others don't like what they see as the "undemocratic" EFM process, and they want to fix things themselves or risk municipal bankruptcy, who am I to quibble? I don't think Detroit's leaders are capable of doing so, but it they choose to go down in flames and take the city with them, with the acquiescence of the citizenry, I'll be content to watch the spectacle.

[michimoby]

That's a good question.I'm thinking because the meat and potatoes of the consent agreement is based in PA4.That said, wait until the lawsuits begin...

According to Gary Brown...

Most of consent agreement remains valid. It's inter-local agreement. State legislature drafting alternative legislation to PA4.

[313WX]

According to Gary Brown...

I don't consider Gary Brown, a person receiving a pension from the city who would lose it in a bankruptcy, a very credible source.

It could still be valid, but two key portions of it have already been deemed invalid by two courts [[including the imposed union contracts).

[313WX]

The shit's starting to hit the fan now...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/211100333

Bing says EM law repeal obstructs fix-it plan

The mayor, in an interview with The Detroit News, said he expects more lawsuits from city employee unions challenging the reform measures and noted more than a dozen suits have already been filed. He said he is meeting with state officials next week to discuss the impact of the repeal on the city's consent agreement with the state.

"Now that the law is not in effect anymore, all of the 25 initiatives that we had are probably up for a legal interpretation," Bing said. "It's a waste of money, it's a waste of time, and it's going to keep us from moving our agenda forward."

On Thursday, the Detroit Police Officers Association sent a letter to the city's labor relations department requesting that the city restore all wage cuts and concessions that were imposed under the consent agreement.

"Repeal [[of P.A. 4) reaffirms and strengthens DPOA's position that the city had no legal right to impose and/or change wage, hours and/or employment condition changes," the letter states.

On Friday, Moody's Investor Service called the defeat of Public Act 4 a "credit negative" for troubled cities and that the lack of state intervention to help those entities does not bode well for distressed municipalities. "Pending litigation challenging the permanent reinstatement of Public Act 72 could result in even further reduction in state supervision," a Moody's statement read.

[Wesley Mouch]

The shit's starting to hit the fan now...

And now its all happening without a safety net. I say let the Unions have all their money. Hell, give them raises. They work hard and deserve it. And let's double the pensions. Its hard retiring these days.

But not one penny of new money from the State, please. If you don't want help, then handle things on your own, please.

[313WX]

And the shit continues to fly...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...portedly-quits

Bing aide who led several initiatives reportedly quits

Detroit

— Mayor Dave Bing's chief operating officer, Chris Brown, who led a range of initiatives such as fixing broken streetlights in the city, has resigned, a source high in the Bing administration confirmed to The Detroit News.

Brown, a former DTE executive who joined the city in January 2011, said Friday he could not confirm or deny that he had left the administration. He referred questions to the mayor's spokesman.

[313WX]

What's funny is how The Detroit News is reporting all of this at 1 AM on a Saturday.

Talk about weasels.

[Honky Tonk]

""Now that the law is not in effect anymore, all of the 25 initiatives that we had are probably up for a legal interpretation," Bing said. "It's a waste of money, it's a waste of time, and it's going to keep us from moving our agenda forward."

Truer words you haven't spoken, Mr. Mayor. And so the Detroit downward spiral continues. More payout, less service, more move-outs, less tax base, less service, more move-outs, less tax base, etc.

[313WX]

""Now that the law is not in effect anymore, all of the 25 initiatives that we had are probably up for a legal interpretation," Bing said. "It's a waste of money, it's a waste of time, and it's going to keep us from moving our agenda forward."

Truer words you haven't spoken, Mr. Mayor. And so the Detroit downward spiral continues. More payout, less service, more move-outs, less tax base, less service, more move-outs, less tax base, etc.

Same thing's happening under PA4 and the consent agreement.

The question is, would both happen slower without it and if we simply got rid of/reduced our debt obligations.

[jerrytimes]

How funny. Obama ran on that he didn't let Detroit go bankrupt. I know it was in reference to the auto industry, but Detroit is flat out broke and is bankrupt. How ironic. This country needs to do something for the city. Are there any cities with a worse financial situation?

[Wesley Mouch]

How funny. Obama ran on that he didn't let Detroit go bankrupt. I know it was in reference to the auto industry, but Detroit is flat out broke and is bankrupt. How ironic. This country needs to do something for the city. Are there any cities with a worse financial situation?

This is kinda like rating who has the worst cancer in a hospital. Largest debt to revenue? Most massive future pension liability? Smallest tax revenue to employee ratio? What you're favorite 'worst'?

California has a number of cities that are in real trouble, driven by excellent work by public employee unions such as teachers who have elected progressive school boards with their mandatory dues. If you like seeing accidents on the freeway, you should probably watch. The state gave their democrats a super-majority -- see NYTimes or City Journal. They accomplished full control of the state -- so all rhetoric aside, we shall see if the progressive leadership can handle responsibility, and if the residents and businesses really can stomach tax increases to fund their spending.

[leapfrog]

Don't worry, in a couple of years Michigan will be a "right to work" state anyways. The Repubs are hell bent on that happening.

Without question - Prop 2 was just testing the waters. Now that it failed big time, this gives the Repubs the momentum they need to push for a right to work law. That was their plan all along

[Wesley Mouch]

Without question - Prop 2 was just testing the waters. Now that it failed big time, this gives the Repubs the momentum they need to push for a right to work law. That was their plan all along

And why shouldn't they push 'right to work'. Why is freedom of association secondary to the rights of the majority? Unions need real reform. They are insulated from the need to reform by old practices and by a stream of money that falls in regardless of their value to their members. They are a monopoly.

It is not unusual for a Union member to be unhappy with their union. Doesn't mean they want the union decertified. But their opinion doesn't really count. Their dues flow to their leaders and get spent as the leaders see fit. This isn't a worker's union. This is no less of a monopoly that see in big business.

'Right to Work' is a reasonable idea. It is objectionable to Unions as it is an existential threat. Well, they could use such a threat. Would be good for them, IMO.

Unionize all that you wish. But don't encumber my ability to do as I wish, to fund groups as I wish, and to be left free from majority wishes -- so long as I cause no harm.