Suburban millage for Detroit Institute of Arts

**gazhekwe** · July-10-12, 12:25 PM

I noticed that proposal as well, Southfield ballot. It does not specify DIA, but it does say it is a RENEWAL, so we approved it before. We are already paying this tax.

I am wondering if this millage paid for the DIA replica works on outdoor display all over Southfield. Has anyone seen them? My favorite is the Nutgathers on the north wall of the Civic Center Building near the Parks and Rec entrance.

**Scottathew** · July-10-12, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Apparently you didn't read the thread.

It's kind of sad when people will be willing to reject a $5-15 a year tax to keep an art museum open. I would also vote for the same millage for the Henry Ford or Detroit Zoo.

We've already passed a millage for the zoo, and we even still have to pay to go in there.

I have an issue with these millages. While some people value going to the zoo and the DIA, other people don't. Passing a millage just forces everyone to pay for it.

Some people don't ever want to go to the DIA. Perhaps they're not interested. Perhaps they live so far away [[for example, northern Macomb or Oakland County) that it's not on their list of things to do.

Forcing everyone to pay for it doesn't make sense.

What we can do is pass the cost directly onto the people that utilize it via admission fees.

If you feel it's a noble cause, go ahead and donate to it. But I'll be voting no any millage because I don't feel that others should be forced to pay for something they may or may not use.

I do make trips to the DIA and plan to take my children there, but I don't want to do it on the backs of people who don't want to go.

Ultimately the voters will decide if it's acceptable to force everyone to pay so that much smaller subset can enjoy.

**poobert** · July-10-12, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Is the DIA actually in danger of closing? Before I support a regional tax I would like to see evidence that they are is such dire straits, and see what other attempts have made to save money or increase funding by other means.

Have they looked at other cost savings? Have employees of the DIA been asked for salary concessions? Have they been asked to pay more for their health insurance or been forced to take unpaid leave days? I know many local government employees including teachers, police officers and fire fighters that have had to make these sacrifices and before I vote to add a tax to fund the DIA I'd like to see that my tax dollars should go there instead of to support struggling essential services. I'm aware that it's only $15 on average, but how many police officers would that pay for in my community?

How about those in communities such as Allen Park or Pontiac where the local government is near bankrupt and have been forced to reduce police and fire services? Does it make sense to people in those communities to fund the DIA when they can't even be assured that their communities will remain solvent?

I'm not voting against "our art museum". I'm voting against an added regional tax when it has not been proven to me that it is necessary or prudent.

If you had actually done YOUR homework as a citizen of a democracy before ALREADY DECIDING TO VOTE NO you would have answers to nearly all of those questions as they have been readily available online and in print for some time now.

Regarding the "people who don’t use it shouldn’t have to pay for it" line, well, I don't have kids in public school but I'm happy to pay my taxes for schools - do you know why? BECAUSE I BELIEVE WE SHOULD HAVE SCHOOLS.

Don't give me this sanctimonious crap about being the voice for the downtrodden. It's going to cost your average person less than $10 per year. If that's what puts you behind on your mortgage, then you've got a lot more to worry about than this millage.

**ghettopalmetto** · July-10-12, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

We've already passed a millage for the zoo, and we even still have to pay to go in there.

I have an issue with these millages. While some people value going to the zoo and the DIA, other people don't. Passing a millage just forces everyone to pay for it.

Some people don't ever want to go to the DIA. Perhaps they're not interested. Perhaps they live so far away [[for example, northern Macomb or Oakland County) that it's not on their list of things to do.

Forcing everyone to pay for it doesn't make sense.

What we can do is pass the cost directly onto the people that utilize it via admission fees.

If you feel it's a noble cause, go ahead and donate to it. But I'll be voting no any millage because I don't feel that others should be forced to pay for something they may or may not use.

I do make trips to the DIA and plan to take my children there, but I don't want to do it on the backs of people who don't want to go.

Ultimately the voters will decide if it's acceptable to force everyone to pay so that much smaller subset can enjoy.

Let us know when you've installed the toll gates on every road in the state.

Shollin · July-10-12, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

We've already passed a millage for the zoo, and we even still have to pay to go in there.

I have an issue with these millages. While some people value going to the zoo and the DIA, other people don't. Passing a millage just forces everyone to pay for it.

Some people don't ever want to go to the DIA. Perhaps they're not interested. Perhaps they live so far away [[for example, northern Macomb or Oakland County) that it's not on their list of things to do.

Forcing everyone to pay for it doesn't make sense.

What we can do is pass the cost directly onto the people that utilize it via admission fees.

If you feel it's a noble cause, go ahead and donate to it. But I'll be voting no any millage because I don't feel that others should be forced to pay for something they may or may not use.

I do make trips to the DIA and plan to take my children there, but I don't want to do it on the backs of people who don't want to go.

Ultimately the voters will decide if it's acceptable to force everyone to pay so that much smaller subset can enjoy.

My kids aren't in school anymore. I know for a fact I won't be sending anyone to Utica schools. Why do I need to pay school taxes? Also, why do I need to pay taxes for Metro Beach? I never drive on 94 in Macomb County, why should I pay for that?

**Detroitnerd** · July-10-12, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Let us know when you've installed the toll gates on every road in the state.

B-b-b-b-b-but roads are necessary! We need roads so we can travel! [[Apparently, not too far though. If we're out in northern Macomb County, there are some things we have to cross off the list of things to do!) Beautiful, beautiful roads paid for by gas taxes across the state, shimmering lanes of concrete, with gorgeous, gorgeous cars driving back and forth, back and forth, filled with hefty people out to buy a stick of butter or a loaf of bread, one trip at a time. That's ... my god ... it's beautiful.

But we don't need no stinkin' frills like an art museum. If they wanted people to go there, why didn't they build it in Auburn Hills, surrounded by a big parking lot!

[[end irony)

**Scottathew** · July-10-12, 12:59 PM

Road are different. They're everywhere. Virtually everyone uses them. It's not feasible to put toll booths on every road. It would not be efficient.

However, the DIA is a building. We know who uses it and how often because you have to physically be inside of it.

Some things make sense to found via property taxes. The DIA does not. I'm more than happy to pay for it at the gate.

**Bham1982** · July-10-12, 01:05 PM

Roads are a poor analogy. Roads are primarily funded through user fees, primarily the gas tax.

So, if we want to follow the roads funding, we would tax users of regional cultural facilities.

**ghettopalmetto** · July-10-12, 01:11 PM

Bham1982,

Do you pay Lowell a fee every time you post on his forum?

**Detroitnerd** · July-10-12, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Road are different. They're everywhere. Virtually everyone uses them. It's not feasible to put toll booths on every road. It would not be efficient.

No, man. I don't use roads in, like, 99 percent of the state. In fact, I probably only use a few lengths of road about six times a week. Why should I have to pay for all the roads you use? It doesn't make sense to FORCE me to pay for them. Why don't YOU pay for your OWN roads?

**gazhekwe** · July-10-12, 01:18 PM

I pointed this out above, I think it changes the whole argument. This is a RENEWAL, NOT a new tax. We have already chosen to pay this tax, and are already paying it. Have been for at least two years.

With all that, my property tax actually went down this year, even though we did add a new tax for our library and parks.

**Detroitnerd** · July-10-12, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Roads are a poor analogy. Roads are primarily funded through user fees, primarily the gas tax.

That's a poor analogy for "user fees." It means that all the people who walk on the street or bike in it are, essentially, freeloaders! Freeloaders!

And why should I pay for roads out in Iron Mountain when I never go there! Socialism!

**ghettopalmetto** · July-10-12, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Road are different. They're everywhere. Virtually everyone uses them. It's not feasible to put toll booths on every road. It would not be efficient.

You know what else is inefficient?

Telling disadvantaged kids that they have to "rise up" and "better themselves"...

...then charging them 20 bucks a pop or more to learn about Diego Rivera and why his work is important.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-10-12, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

We can always simply allow the DIA to close.

After all, like the Detroit Science Center, who needs it?

The Science Center is privately owned by the Ferry Family and managed by a non-profit.

**cramerro** · July-10-12, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Roads are a poor analogy. Roads are primarily funded through user fees, primarily the gas tax.

So, if we want to follow the roads funding, we would tax users of regional cultural facilities.

Roads are a bad example? They're "primarily funded through user fees..." JUST LIKE THE DIA AND THE ZOO! You pay $10 or $15 a year in this new tax, and then you pay $60-$110/year [[so you pay about 9-16% via tax, the rest through user fees) to go there [[annual memberships). I'd say that's about on par with the share of non-gas-tax funding that goes into road projects, from Federal and State sources.

Earlier on this thread you mentioned that people who live farther out in the suburbs should pay less, because they're farther away. You know what? I don't use the roads that are out in the boonies, that are draining the user fees I pay to fund road expansion. Why can't I opt-out of that? I don't need to go on I-75... why should I be forced to endure crappy roads in Wayne county so that 75% of our road funding can reconstruct and widen that asset?

The DIA, the Zoo, the Henry Ford, Metroparks, SMART Bus, the list goes on and on [[I can lump in roads, electric grid, sewer and water in good condition as well). These are things that make our region an attractive place to live, work, and do business, whick increases propertry values and quality of life for everyone. You pay a small portion, shared with the whole region, to help keep these things solvent. You pay more, if you chose to directly use them [[admission, fare, etc.). How more than one of you can be so strongly against having the equivalent of $1 a month [[on average) be siphoned off into saving one of the few remaining world-class attractions in our state is beyond me.

**Detroitnerd** · July-10-12, 01:28 PM

Entertaining reading, and I agree. But you'll need more than mere logic to deter our resident private-sector Panglosses I'm afraid ...

**DetroitPlanner** · July-10-12, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

That's a poor analogy for "user fees." It means that all the people who walk on the street or bike in it are, essentially, freeloaders! Freeloaders!

And why should I pay for roads out in Iron Mountain when I never go there! Socialism!

They are worse than freeloaders! You can throw bus riders in the mix as well. $100 million in road user fees are diverted to these types of projects every year in the region.

One needs to understand that everything is part of one system. Yeah we pay for roads in rural places like South Dakota, but we also benefit from interstate trade that runs through South Dakota. After all we can't sell cars in the Pacific Northwest if we had no way of getting the cars out there. Without buses or bike paths many people who do not or cannot drive would have no way to get to work and be productive members of our capitalist society.

The same holds true for the metro Detroit system. Having a world class art museum with free admissions will do more to attract jobs locally, which will stabilize home values and make the region a more attractive place to live and work.

**coracle** · July-10-12, 01:30 PM

http://macomb.patch.com/articles/dia-millage-proposal-creates-pro-con-list-for-suburban-voters-on-aug-

**Johnnny5** · July-10-12, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

If you had actually done YOUR homework as a citizen of a democracy before ALREADY DECIDING TO VOTE NO you would have answers to nearly all of those questions as they have been readily available online and in print for some time now.

Poobert, I'm not sure what your problem is, but I've read a lot of your recent posts here and it appears as if there are very few topics that you can discuss without coming across as a complete ass. Honestly, I feel sorry for those who interact with in person [[Assuming that they do) and since I have no need for the grief, I'll be adding your name to my ignore list.

**313WX** · July-10-12, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The Science Center is privately owned by the Ferry Family and managed by a non-profit.

So?

The DIA is also managed by a non-profit tri-county authority.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-10-12, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Road are different. They're everywhere. Virtually everyone uses them. It's not feasible to put toll booths on every road. It would not be efficient.

By the time the next transportation authorization comes around I hope we are ready to change to a milage based system where funding is based on how much you drive and where you drive. Since we are quickly moving to GPS based technolgies, why not use them to be more equitable?

A small property tax to support local cultural institutions will pay off in huge dividends for the region's residents through better access to culture, improvements to our educational systems for the youngsters who will be paying for our social security, and making the area a more attractive place to live in work [[translating into better property values).

**gazhekwe** · July-10-12, 01:38 PM

And, we are already paying the tax, even while our property taxes went down!

**ghettopalmetto** · July-10-12, 01:40 PM

You know what else I don't believe in? Airports. In any given year, most people don't fly on a plane. Why should they get MY money? Parks piss me off too. Why can't people buy their own plot of land with grass and trees like I did, with my federally-subsidized mortgage?

I just want to sit on my couch and wait for death. Leave me alone and stop taking my money, just because you want to enjoy your life and such.

**1953** · July-10-12, 01:49 PM

My thoughts on this issue:

1. The museum is indeed at risk of closing. Decades of city and state support, now withdrawn, have resulted in it having a small operating endowment, a funding vehicle by which most world class museums get money to pay for lights and heat, etc. Fundraising has closed this gap for years, but donor fatigue will set in eventually, without more sustainable support for operating costs.

2. Economies are regional, even if political boundaries are not. So, whether Milford or White Lake or Oakland Twp., like it, its in their best interests to keep strong cultural attractions at the heart of the region.

3. We should not decide on taxes using the "is this the least we can get by on approach" previously mentioned. In order for our region to create a successful brand, we need to invest in infrastructure that will help define us as a unique and quality community. Doing this will help keep taxes down in the long term, by promoting private sector investment in the region.

4. Yes, many businesses do look at amenities in an area before locating there - they look for art museums because you can't attract talented people to a backwater community.

1953

**Bham1982** · July-10-12, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Having a world class art museum with free admissions will do more to attract jobs locally, which will stabilize home values and make the region a more attractive place to live and work.

Is there any evidence that having a world class art museum stabilizes home values and makes the region more attractive to others?

Because I don't see any strong relationship between quality of the local art museum and desirability of real estate or strength of job market.

Generally speaking, good art museums in the U.S. tend to be in the older parts of the country, since that's where the people and money were back when collections were amassed.

There are very few good art museums in places like California, Arizona, and Florida, and there are many in places like New York, Pennsylvania, and Michigan.

I would say there's no strong relationship whatsoever between quality of local art museum and property values or job market.