Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[dtowncitylover]

While I'm no Brooks fan, Oakland has little to gain from regional transit, but much to lose...

That's like saying Lake County, IL and Westchester County, NY have "much to lose" from their respective transit services. Yeah, they're just awful places to live.

[illwill]

This isn't true. The vast majority of Chicago chain retail has the exact same format as in Metro Detroit.Underground parking for retail is almost unheard of in Chicago. I'm not sure if there's even one such example. Free garage parking attached to retail is fairly common in the core, but hardly typical.Your average Walgreens, McDonalds or Treasure Island, even in the most dense and affluent residential neighborhoods [[say Lincoln Park or Lakeview) is built in the same format as in Sterling Heights or wherever. Strip malls setback from the street, with free surface parking fronting the sidewalk.But you are right that at least you have choices. You can walk to the retail, or take transit. You generally can't do this here. And the non-chain retail is usually in a more pedestrian friendly arrangement.This shows that, even in a city with good transit and good walkability, the automobile dominates the modal share, and generally dictates the built form.

Actually there is a lot of underground parking but you can also find a lot of rooftop parking above businesses too. Chicago's neighborhoods are inconsistant. Many areas are suburban as A2 or Wayne. And others are still old school city grid Chicago style.

Nothing is absolute.

[GoGrixdale]

My emotions on the whole M1 rail project were put through the ringer. Since I can’t predict the future I left some things to faith.

The sound portion for the residential part of the M1’s Environmental Impact Study was done at my house, in my backyard over the course of two weeks in 2008. It showed that the decibel increase of the rail would “most likely cause notable impact” to my summer barbecues. But they said they’d lubricate [read grease] the wheels. and…ok. …a little faith

I went from being a staunch NIMBY to a cheerleader. I was won over by reading the documentation available and by going to as many “Community Input” forums as I could. …including Detroit Works forums which IMO are relevant to this subject in vibe. …see faith

I involved my thirteen year old for his take on what this meant to our lifestyle. He attended the forums with me, bored and taking notes, but ultimately it made for some good dinner/car ride conversation. ..generational faith

We both looked forward to the train expanding his world. The train would be safer than a bus for him, right? Most likely there would even be an express schedule from the Shoppes at Gateway to Downtown. Hey, even me and my crew from Royal Oak could park/ride/drink to Greektown on an occasional Friday. …again with the faith

After all that, it’s easy to start dreaming that within 10 years my wife and I can take a late afternoon ride north for dinner at Howe’s Bayou. ...watch out now… faith out of control

So now the worm has turned, an audible called, that squarely places the egg before the chicken.

There are plenty of people who will benefit from clean, dependable buses that go into suburbs for sub $11hr jobs [[most making more that that will probably drive) and that’s good, I’ll help fund it. There will be a trickle of kids and seniors who can get into the city for the cultural center and that’s good too, I’ll help fund it.

I don’t think I will ever ride the bus more than once [[just to say I did it). For me it’s stations vs. stops and climbing-in vs. stepping-on.

RTA, LRT, BRT, even PDQ there is no denying that the woodward line is the most travled. Maybe I'll muster some faith that all plans start here.

[GoGrixdale]

Looks to me if you take the private sector and the unions out of it that public transit has been known to make money:

"To shed some light on the service the PCCs provided during their rather short service life in Detroit, let's take a look at theservice provided on the city's very first rail line, East Jefferson. In 1951, thirty-five PCCs were needed to operate during peak periods, while fifteen units were needed during the base. Approximately 39,000 passengers used the East Jefferson cars during an average weekday, with schedules operating at a 1½ minute headway during peak hours and with a 5-5½ minute headway during off-peak hours. The heaviest line, Woodward Avenue, required sixty-three PCC cars to operate during peak periods and thirty–seven during the base. Approximately 70,000 passengers rode the Woodward cars daily, and schedules called for 1½ minute headways during peak hours and 2½ minutes during midday hours. The Woodward line was also the department's most profit making line citywide, with profits soaring to nearly $95,000 a month."

[mwilbert]

Individual lines can make money--the Woodward line was profitable on a farebox vs. operating cost basis at least into the mid-1970s [[maybe later; but I remember seeing the numbers at that point). But there aren't any transit systems in the US that make money.

[GoGrixdale]

Individual lines can make money--the Woodward line was profitable on a farebox vs. operating cost basis at least into the mid-1970s [[maybe later; but I remember seeing the numbers at that point). But there aren't any transit systems in the US that make money.

Noted. But still a good case for a Woodward Line first.

[Hermod]

Looks to me if you take the private sector and the unions out of it that public transit has been known to make money:

Trolley systems throughout the US were profitable [[at a very thin margin) till after World War I. There was quite a runup in wages and salaries after WWI and the trolley systems all began to go into the red.

The companies tried to combat this. First they went to one man cars from the two man motorman and conductor arrangement that had been common. Municipalities refused to allow necessary fare increases and burdened the trolley companies with expenses for road maintenance. One by one, the trolleys were either abandoned or taken over by the government. Even the governments couldn't halt the fiscal bleeding of red ink and either converted to buses or just phased out public transit.

[urbanhat]

While I'm no Brooks fan, Oakland has little to gain from regional transit, but much to lose, and Detroit has the inverse situation. So it isn't surprising that Brooks is skeptical of regional taxes, that will essentially cost his county and benefit the other counties.

Pretty much everyone on this thread [[actually myself included) thinks Brooks is a buffoon, but his county has really been a model of success under his reign. I'm not sure that he had much to do with it, but Oakland is Michigan's economic engine, and is a model of conservative budgeting.

I would say Oakland has some to gain and a little to lose. Like casscorridor said, the gain is a better chance at a stable future; the cost is a very small amount in taxes.

But generally, you're right. Relative to other places in Michigan, Oakland is doing great. Someone taking a small-world, short-sighted view would conclude it's doing the right thing, so why not continue to do the same thing? To someone with that narrow view, the worse off its neighbors are, the better Oakland looks, never mind that the entire region is falling behind.

The question people should be asking is, first, is it really doing that well relative to other suburban places outside of Michigan? More important, is this "model of success" still going to work 40 years from now?

I'm afraid that people here are too short-sighted to see this. This is the same lack of foresight that got the SUV-producing car companies in trouble.

[Novine]

"Pretty much everyone on this thread [[actually myself included) thinks Brooks is a buffoon, but his county has really been a model of success under his reign. I'm not sure that he had much to do with it, but Oakland is Michigan's economic engine, and is a model of conservative budgeting."

Economic engine of a ramshackle jalopy that's been lagging behind real growth areas for decades. I guess if you set the standards low enough, we'll beat them! In 10 years, the county added 8,000 people. That's it. The county seat, Pontiac, is under the control of an Emergency Financial Manager. Many of the county's older communities are struggling and even some newer communities lost population in the last census. The county government has had to cuts millions and shed workers because the countywide tax base has collapsed. We're hardly a model of economic success.

[ghettopalmetto]

"Pretty much everyone on this thread [[actually myself included) thinks Brooks is a buffoon, but his county has really been a model of success under his reign. I'm not sure that he had much to do with it, but Oakland is Michigan's economic engine, and is a model of conservative budgeting."

Economic engine of a ramshackle jalopy that's been lagging behind real growth areas for decades. I guess if you set the standards low enough, we'll beat them! In 10 years, the county added 8,000 people. That's it. The county seat, Pontiac, is under the control of an Emergency Financial Manager. Many of the county's older communities are struggling and even some newer communities lost population in the last census. The county government has had to cuts millions and shed workers because the countywide tax base has collapsed. We're hardly a model of economic success.

Oakland County just happened to be lucky...

...lucky enough to be in the path of vast economic displacement from the urban core, and lucky enough to be located along several major multi-billion dollar freeways paid for by the State of Michigan and the United States Government.

Oakland County stands to benefit from transit at least as much as Detroit does. Think of all the City of Detroit residents who work and shop in Oakland County. Think of the Woodward communities like Ferndale and Royal Oak. Think of all the folks who head downtown for a Tigers/Lions/Wings game, casino, concert, or event.

The "growth" that Oakland County has enjoyed is going to come to a standstill at some point--either gasoline will become too expensive, or the county will run out of paveable land. What then? We're already seeing signs of decline in the older suburbs of the south county. What is Brooksie gonna do when there's nowhere left to "grow"?

[Hermod]

Think of all the folks who head downtown for a Tigers/Lions/Wings game, casino, concert, or event.

Somehow, GP, I cannot use people wanting to go to a sporting event, casino, or concert as a justification for the expenditure of tax money.

[Wesley Mouch]

Somehow, GP, I cannot use people wanting to go to a sporting event, casino, or concert as a justification for the expenditure of tax money.

Agreed on tax money for this purpose, but its only a subset of the purposes for which urban life is celebrated, including more erudite activities such as museum-going or 'occupying'.

[urbanhat]

What is Brooksie gonna do when there's nowhere left to "grow"?

Well, that's probably exactly the time he'll be gone. Lucky for him, not so lucky for those who outlive him.

[ghettopalmetto]

Somehow, GP, I cannot use people wanting to go to a sporting event, casino, or concert as a justification for the expenditure of tax money.

So how do you reconcile the Lodge Freeway reconstruction???

[Detroitnerd]

So how do you reconcile the Lodge Freeway reconstruction???

Oh, that's different! That's a thruway, progress, so that "mankind's magic carpet" can take him wherever he wants to go!

[Wesley Mouch]

Oh, that's different! That's a thruway, progress, so that "mankind's magic carpet" can take him wherever he wants to go!

THRUWAY!

What a great word. You don't hear it much around these parts. Although I think its more a TOWAY -- it goes TO Detroit, not THRU it.

Just happy you have a justification for your thoughts.

[GoGrixdale]

does that make 696 a NOWAY?

[Detroitdave]

Nice rant -- and I agree that federal funding seems to avoid Detroit these days -- but...

What makes you think that Light Rail will be squeaky-clean and well-run? When the very busses run by the same people are the rolling-plague described?

From my experience using Light Rail, light rail has police or transit police , not like buses . It's a lot easier to police a few rail lines than a huge buses system , which is the problem with the current buses system , which btw needs to be address . Also rail traffic runs a lot more efficiently generally when focusing on the few lines that Detroit is talking about . Also from my experiences on mass transit in several cities around the world , they have been generally clean and well run ? but then again I haven't been everywhere :-) and say what you want , but the people mover is clean , runs most of the time , and does what it was built to do, move people around downtown.
The buses we are talking about are the very same buses I remember seeing when I was a kid in the 80's ! I don't think DOT has added one new bus to the system since the 80's, or a new fleet of buses while nearly EVERY major city in the country has new buses .

Detroit keep patching up the same old buses, Why buy new buses when we can keep the buses that are 30 years old ?

[antongast]

The buses we are talking about are the very same buses I remember seeing when I was a kid in the 80's ! I don't think DOT has added one new bus to the system since the 80's, or a new fleet of buses while nearly EVERY major city in the country has new buses .

Detroit keep patching up the same old buses, Why buy new buses when we can keep the buses that are 30 years old ?

They aren't the same buses. They might look similar, since DDOT had some RTSs in the '80s and they have some now, but the oldest ones currently in service are 1996 models.

[Detroitdave]

They aren't the same buses. They might look similar, since DDOT had some RTSs in the '80s and they have some now, but the oldest ones currently in service are 1996 models.

Thanks antongast , They look very similar, I know DDot is tight for cash but , they need an to upgrade to more efficient, environment friendly buses . It's like they are driving 1990s gas guzzers , when they can save money by using ethanol buses ?
BTW will these new buses be environment friendly i.e electric , ethanol ?

[Wesley Mouch]

Thanks antongast , They look very similar, I know DDot is tight for cash but , they need an to upgrade to more efficient, environment friendly buses . It's like they are driving 1990s gas guzzers , when they can save money by using ethanol buses ?
BTW will these new buses be environment friendly i.e electric , ethanol ?

DD: I think you may be missing a critical point here. If a BRT [[Bus Rapid Transit) system is built, it doesn't mean only new busses. It should and must mean a system much more like a subway, but done on-grade, with rolling vehicles. They might be diesel, but could just as easily be natural gas or hybrid or frankly whatever you want and can afford. You'd pay to ride before you get on the vehicle to minimize delays, and with separate roadway, traffic signal priorities, fewer dedicated stations you can get much more speed.

[bailey]

Have you no shame, bailey? Even just a little?



They wanted it to run at the curb, but then the study overruled them. They were prickly about that, but according to insiders like Bill Shea, they were willing to work through the process. And the plan was to take it to Eight Mile Road. You are selectively interpreting internal debates and public processes to arrive at a preselected shitty configuration for the purposes of your own argument. If that isn't intellectual dishonesty, you will never know what it is.



If it were curb-running, and if it were very short, and if it were a parking trolley and not light rail, then that would be true. What we are talking about here, or at least what I thought we were talking about, is why light rail would add things to the mix that attract the people the region is bleeding. What does that mode do that other modes can't, and what sort of message does it send to Detroiters who might consider returning.

But if you just want to use this opportunity to denigrate us all and have a big, public conniption, go ahead. I know you will. It's that whole lack-of-shame thing again...

posted without further comment...except to say; they NEVER gave up the curb running tram.

From Dan Gilbert's interview with Crains the day the plan went to shit....

"I'm not opposed to the [[bus system). I welcome it, and I think it can be a good thing for Detroit, in terms of feeding people in and out of the city," he said. "But once you're downtown, you need a curb-side rail line because it serves a different purpose. The two can be compatible."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...he-rails-on-m1

[iheartthed]

posted without further comment...except to say; they NEVER gave up the curb running tram.

I was reading a blog that kinda explained their apparent confusion about curbside rail. I'd never even see it before until this proposal, but the blog pointed out that it does exist in some cities, except the rail is always running along the curb on a one-way street. It's also always just one line going in one direction. Woodward, as we all know, is a two-way thoroughfare, so the curbside thing just doesn't make sense at all.

http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...s-gilbert.html

[Detroitnerd]

posted without further comment...except to say; they NEVER gave up the curb running tram.

From Dan Gilbert's interview with Crains the day the plan went to shit....


http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...he-rails-on-m1

Well, that's a serious worry, that one one side is an additional bus system, on the other a parking shuttle and -- as usual -- the monkeys in the middle.

Of course, a Crain's reporter had insisted that the issue was not where it would run at all, and that Detroit's business leaders weren't balking at the LRT proposal because of alignment issues ... sigh ...

[Hypestyles]

The 500.... 501st post! yippee!

...do any american companies make the BRT buses at all?
how much genuine construction would go into creating the stations?