Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[illwill]

I think you're taking it a little hard. There a quite a few walkable cities in or near Detroit. Cass Corridor/Wayne State, Downtown, English Village, Indian Village, Palmer, Boston Edison, New Center, Ferndale, Royal Oak, The pointes, Ann Arbor, Ypsi etc...

If you need to hop in the car, it's a 5 minute drive to anywhere. Detroit is still doable EVEN without rail.

You gotta give up something and family, friends, Coneys, Buddy's, Tigers supercede rails in my opinion.


Or do duel residency...Work in Chicago and Detroit is still cheap enough to have weekend home.

[urbanhat]

That education project is hard. Here's one of the things that complicates it [[though it may not speak to your parents; I do not know them):

It's not a matter of education on the basics of rail, development, shifting attitudes, youth trends, what's happening across the United States, etc.

A lot of it is underpinned by racial animosity. Most of it, I'd argue.

Why should we [[white suburban people) subsidize them [[inner-city blacks).

Which is why so many of us are so upset over these recent developments. If it can't work now, we're looking at a wait of perhaps 10-20 years for a whole generation to die off. I know that sounds awful, but, short of the appearance of a messiah, what else will change the ingrained attitudes that undergird this hostility toward urban environments and the people who populate them?

Corktownyuppie, I think your assessment is just about right on, and Detroitnerd exactly articulated the one point that was missing. If the debate with Category 1 people were merely about economics, education about the benefits of transit might be persuasive. But that's not the debate. Instead, for Category 1 people, this is about deeply entrenched attitudes about race and, for many people, changing opinions would require a complete change in worldview.

I don't think the task is impossible, but we at least have to recognize the nature of the challenge.

[Novine]

I know everyone assumes that the suburbs hate transit, no one in the suburbs want to pay for transit and there's no chance of ever having a regional transit authority. While I think the chances of a RTA are slim and none, I think it's important to not confuse the attitudes of suburban leaders like L. Brooks Patterson or the Livonia City Council with the attitudes of voters. SMART's operating millage was approved by voters by pretty decent margins multiple times, even when they jacked up the millage rate last time. Patterson has opposed a county-wide vote because he knows that there's enough support for SMART countywide that it would pass as it has in Macomb County. The only community to opt-out by popular vote was Livonia and even in that case, voters still approved a millage for local transit service of 0.5 mills.

[illwill]

I’mgonna keep it real on this one and bring up something that no one has mentionedyet. RACE!

WhenDave Bing said that he represents the people of Detroit, is he talking aboutthe masses? The Black community? Is he talking about his constituents? If MayorBing is to be elected to another term, then he MUST service the entire city ofDetroit. Not just Downtown.

Detroitis approximately 85% Black and in his mind, he is thinking that the people who DON’Treside Downtown [[the 80%, who are Black) need NEW & RELIABLE transportationas well. The city demographics clearly shows that you have more people livingoutside of Downtown than you do inside of Downtown. These people needtransportation as well. If the masses get new busses and more reliable bus arrivalschedules then “the masses” are happy. THESE…people, are his constituents. One railline down Woodward would cost Mayor Dave Bing his job. And also keep in mindthat Bing isn’t doing so good financially either. He needs this second term. Heis now protecting his “job.”

Now,I certainly understand that without Downtown and the business community, thereis no Detroit. However, is Dan Gilbert really going to pick-up his buildingsand move to Royal Oak? I doubt it. Mike Illitch doesn’t bitch because “he is”Downtown Entertainment and has been for the past 30 years, through the good andthe bad without any problems. So, Bing is still in the driver’s seat on thisone. And in the end, Detroit is a city that will live or die with a BlackMayor. Or just keep floating along, as it is…? In my opinion, this is a majorreason why so few people show interest to invest in the city. A MAJOR Americancity with more spending power than probably Cleveland, Minneapolis, NewOrleans, Atlanta and many others. Whites and Wealthy Blacks do not want tosupport Detroit. Whites because of Prejudice and Blacks because without Whitesinvesting, “it’s probably not a great idea.” I’m talking REAL WEALTH. It’sunfortunate but I think I’m right. Or maybe I’m wrong…

Neverthe less, I can’t believe Detroit is still going through this petty bullshityears later. I look at fucked up cities and states like Chicago, New York City,Baltimore, Washington D.C., Cleveland, Buffalo, Philly, New Jersey etc…and I sayto myself…”these pathetic American cities are making the system work for them.”When I say “fucked up cities” I’m talking about politically corrupt, racist,crooked typical screwed up Northern American big cities. Cities that are NODIFFERENT than Detroit, because let’s face it…all of the Northern Rust Beltcities and Northeast cities are ALL THE SAME! We all have our regionaldifferences but we’re all the same! But Detroit is still the ONLY city whereGovernment isn’t working for us as a whole. For the people.

Ipersonally think race is the under-lying issue. And I agree with Bing on thisone. But I understand the views of the people who have made HUGE life changesand sacrifices to be in Detroit, in the hopes of change and a better Detroit.Bottom line is Detroit is broke and Detroit is backwards. In the end, Detroit’sissues are still the same issues from 40 years ago. It’s amazing! This is aBlack city with a Black Mayor and until Detroit is a White city with a WhiteMayor, Detroit will ALWAYS be the same. When David Dinkins of NYC became Mayor,residents and businesses fled the city. Same in Philly, same in D.C., same inChicago. The good thing for those cities is they never completely died likeDetroit did. Those cities never lost population like Detroit did. The tax basefrom property owners in Detroit is 14% in this damn city. That may as well benothing.

Detroitis, what it is! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Theold school Detroiters [[Black & White know what I’m talking about).

[dtowncitylover]

I know everyone assumes that the suburbs hate transit, no one in the suburbs want to pay for transit and there's no chance of ever having a regional transit authority. While I think the chances of a RTA are slim and none, I think it's important to not confuse the attitudes of suburban leaders like L. Brooks Patterson or the Livonia City Council with the attitudes of voters. SMART's operating millage was approved by voters by pretty decent margins multiple times, even when they jacked up the millage rate last time. Patterson has opposed a county-wide vote because he knows that there's enough support for SMART countywide that it would pass as it has in Macomb County. The only community to opt-out by popular vote was Livonia and even in that case, voters still approved a millage for local transit service of 0.5 mills.

Frankly Snyder can shove the RTA down Patterson's throat and LBP can deal with it, just like we have taken his bullshit for the past 20 years.

[iheartthed]

I’mgonna keep it real on this one and bring up something that no one has mentionedyet. RACE!

WhenDave Bing said that he represents the people of Detroit, is he talking aboutthe masses? The Black community? Is he talking about his constituents? If MayorBing is to be elected to another term, then he MUST service the entire city ofDetroit. Not just Downtown.

Detroitis approximately 85% Black and in his mind, he is thinking that the people who DON’Treside Downtown [[the 80%, who are Black) need NEW & RELIABLE transportationas well. The city demographics clearly shows that you have more people livingoutside of Downtown than you do inside of Downtown. These people needtransportation as well. If the masses get new busses and more reliable bus arrivalschedules then “the masses” are happy. THESE…people, are his constituents. One railline down Woodward would cost Mayor Dave Bing his job. And also keep in mindthat Bing isn’t doing so good financially either. He needs this second term. Heis now protecting his “job.”

So why did Dave Bing sign onto a "very fast bus" agreement that doesn't really serve his constituents much better than the light rail plan? Out of 30 or so stops on the proposed routes, only about 4 of them are in areas of Detroit that are outside of downtown and midtown. Compare that to M1 Rail, which had 7 stops in the city outside of downtown and midtown.

[Novine]

"Frankly Snyder can shove the RTA down Patterson's throat and LBP can deal with it, just like we have taken his bullshit for the past 20 years."

Snyder and what army? Snyder couldn't line up the votes for the bridge and that had backing from a lot well-funded interests. He's going to get who in Lansing to slam the RTA down Patterson's throats? Patterson's cronies? That's not going to happen.

[SteveJ]

I think you're taking it a little hard. There a quite a few walkable cities in or near Detroit. Cass Corridor/Wayne State, Downtown, English Village, Indian Village, Palmer, Boston Edison, New Center, Ferndale, Royal Oak, The pointes, Ann Arbor, Ypsi etc...

If you need to hop in the car, it's a 5 minute drive to anywhere. Detroit is still doable EVEN without rail.

You gotta give up something and family, friends, Coneys, Buddy's, Tigers supercede rails in my opinion.


Or do duel residency...Work in Chicago and Detroit is still cheap enough to have weekend home.

Seriously. Who wants to take public transportation in the winter if they could take their own car and park it 50 feet from the door. Nobody is moving to Chicago so they can wait outside in January when their is 8 inches of snow and 10 degrees outside. They are moving there because they can't find a job here. Goodbye to anyone that wants to leave for a fucking train. You weren't a true Detroiter to begin with.

[corktownyuppie]

"Frankly Snyder can shove the RTA down Patterson's throat and LBP can deal with it, just like we have taken his bullshit for the past 20 years."

Snyder and what army? Snyder couldn't line up the votes for the bridge and that had backing from a lot well-funded interests. He's going to get who in Lansing to slam the RTA down Patterson's throats? Patterson's cronies? That's not going to happen.

Well in defense of dtowncitylover, Snyder's bridge push meant going up against arguably the wealthiest and most politically connected single person in the state. If it weren't for the opposition of Montgomery Burns in GP, this would have been a slam dunk. And even with 5 seconds in the 4th quarter, Moroun could only eke out a close win by resorting to stoking ignorance and irrational fears in Delray.

Selling Patterson on an RTA won't be easy, but it will be much easier than going up against the troll under the bridge. And I think Snyder and Bing, being from the corporate world that so many in Detroit rally up against, are probably the right guys to close the deal.

I know you're betting against it. And I wouldn't be my life on it. But, I think it can be done.

[Novine]

You're giving too much credit to the clowns in Lansing. There's plenty of Republicans who delight in sticking it to Detroit. They're not going to listen to Snyder, they're going to listen to their local contingent of Tea Partiers who are going to tell them to vote "NO!" on anything that resembles a tax hike that is seen as helping Detroit.

[corktownyuppie]

You're giving too much credit to the clowns in Lansing. There's plenty of Republicans who delight in sticking it to Detroit. They're not going to listen to Snyder, they're going to listen to their local contingent of Tea Partiers who are going to tell them to vote "NO!" on anything that resembles a tax hike that is seen as helping Detroit.

Most of my friends are Republicans. Most of them think the Tea Party contingency suffers from mild to severe mental retardation. Granted, most of my friends are under 40, so, you might be right, since we haven't hit the political scene in big numbers quite yet.

In either case, here's a primer on how not to sell it to Brooksie, "We're so poor and it's your fault, so we're entitled to some of your money."

[corktownyuppie]

Primer part 2:

"We want your money, but we don't want you to tell us what do with it."

[illwill]

As we bicker, others build...

http://blog.chicagoarchitecture.info...ecture+Blog%29

[detroitbob]

Seriously. Who wants to take public transportation in the winter if they could take their own car and park it 50 feet from the door. Nobody is moving to Chicago so they can wait outside in January when their is 8 inches of snow and 10 degrees outside. They are moving there because they can't find a job here. Goodbye to anyone that wants to leave for a fucking train. You weren't a true Detroiter to begin with.

And where do you live? According to your profile, Huntington Woods, correct? Ever lived in Detroit? Or Chicago? Plenty of people in Chicago live in neighborhoods with higher incomes and property values than your little 'hood and take rapid transit every day. They choose not to own a car. If you have read the comments, including mine, it is not just about "a fucking train".

[Bham1982]

And where do you live? According to your profile, Huntington Woods, correct? Ever lived in Detroit? Or Chicago? Plenty of people in Chicago live in neighborhoods with higher incomes and property values than your little 'hood and take rapid transit every day. They choose not to own a car. If you have read the comments, including mine, it is not just about "a fucking train".

You're half-right.

You're right that plenty of people in Chicago choose to take transit [[at least when it comes to commuting), but you're wrong that folks choose to live without cars.

The vast majority of Chicago households own cars. In fact, the City of Chicago has more two car households than no car households. Given the significant poverty in vast swaths of the city, it's highly unlikely that those no car households are concentrated in the most affluent neighborhoods. If you know anyone settled into a place like Lincoln Park, you know that almost everyone has a car, and that parking is so important that condos usually come with at least one parking space included.

To me, this is indicative that the folks on this thread who think that 8 miles of light rail on Woodward, by itself, can transform a region, are probably wrong. Even Chicago, easily the most transit-oriented city in the Midwest, is completely addicted to the automobile, and almost no one outside the poor and college-aged go car-free.

If you want more folks in Metro Detroit to commute by transit, there are some investments that could bear fruit. But, if you want to transform the region, you probably have to blow up the place and start over. We haven't built for transit in a century.

[detroitbob]

Many friends of mine, north siders or west loop residents don't own cars...some do, but they garage them during the week and use the cars on weekends or rent a car for shopping trips or recreational use. The cost of driving into and/or parking in the loo/river north/no mi ave etc. is prohibitive and the rapid transit or the Metra train service is far cheaper and more convenient than parking. Most major companies offer rebates on transit cards and flex spending commuter benefits. Also the city of Chicago makes everyone buy a parking sticker no matter where you park, in a lot or on a street. The rates have risen and I think approack 100.00 per year per vehicle. that's on top of the insurance. By comparision, owning a car in metro Detroit is far cheaper. In another instance, parking is so scarce, particularly in the Lincoln Park neighborhood, one friend uses his car during the week as he travels city wide and parks it on weekends and uses the CTA to get downtown on weekends and walks to his neighborhod Jewel Osco, Dominics or Whole Foods or Target---all within a couple of blocks from his condo. A novelty, lives in the city and can walk to three decent markets. Opps, that's Chicago, not Detroit. So, it's nice having the option...
Parking rate example...lunch for two at Weber's at N. State St. and W. Grand Ave. with tip 30.00. Parking in the building garage, no validation available, 23.00. total time 2 hours.

[Pam]

I think you're taking it a little hard. There a quite a few walkable cities in or near Detroit. Cass Corridor/Wayne State, Downtown, English Village, Indian Village, Palmer, Boston Edison, New Center, Ferndale, Royal Oak, The pointes, Ann Arbor, Ypsi etc...

Yes, there are a lot of areas that are at least partially walkable if you look. I think "driving 15 minutes for milk" is easy to avoid.

[stasu1213]

Seriously. Who wants to take public transportation in the winter if they could take their own car and park it 50 feet from the door. Nobody is moving to Chicago so they can wait outside in January when their is 8 inches of snow and 10 degrees outside. They are moving there because they can't find a job here. Goodbye to anyone that wants to leave for a fucking train. You weren't a true Detroiter to begin with.

People don't choose Chicago or New York over Detroit only for the trains. People choose those city for the opportunities that Detroit didn't have. Opportunities that includes jobs, shopping, retail, and yes reliable transportation that practically drops a worker or resident off a couple of feet away from the destination and not 50ft. A person who want to live in Detroit or the surrounding suburbs is force to buy a car and high insurance to get around. Two corporations that are probably controlling the decisionmaking done by these elected officials in the city in state. I don't mind waiting in the cold for a few minutes knowing that the transportation will arrive on time. I will know that I might be cold for a few minutes but have more money in my pocket.Most stores in those other cites have their entrances close to the sidewalk where a shopper could get off the bus, trolley, or whatever and walk right into the establishment. A person would have to walk across a massive parking lot to get to the establishment in Detroit. Many employees who work downtown are force to pay a high amount of money to park in the parking structures downtown so they could be close to their jobs. The only option they have is to wait on a SMART bus which had declined in reliability over the past 10 years. These things had made other cities such as New York and Chicago more attractive than the auto friendly city of Detroit

[Novine]

"Even Chicago, easily the most transit-oriented city in the Midwest, is completely addicted to the automobile, and almost no one outside the poor and college-aged go car-free."

You're confusing owning a car with using a car. Plenty of people own a car but don't use it regularly. When I visit friends in Washington DC, they almost never drive me anywhere using their car. We can use the Metro or a bus or a cab or can walk to almost any destination we want to reach in the city. Same with friends in San Francisco. Same with friends in Portland. Friends in Chicago do tend to drive a bit more than the others but there are plenty of choices for transportation, unlike in Detroit. These are people who can afford to own a car, or two, and keep it in the city. But they rarely use the car and almost never to go somewhere in the city. If these were cities that were "addicted to the automobile", that wouldn't be possible.

[stasu1213]

"Even Chicago, easily the most transit-oriented city in the Midwest, is completely addicted to the automobile, and almost no one outside the poor and college-aged go car-free."

You're confusing owning a car with using a car. Plenty of people own a car but don't use it regularly. When I visit friends in Washington DC, they almost never drive me anywhere using their car. We can use the Metro or a bus or a cab or can walk to almost any destination we want to reach in the city. Same with friends in San Francisco. Same with friends in Portland. Friends in Chicago do tend to drive a bit more than the others but there are plenty of choices for transportation, unlike in Detroit. These are people who can afford to own a car, or two, and keep it in the city. But they rarely use the car and almost never to go somewhere in the city. If these were cities that were "addicted to the automobile", that wouldn't be possible.

You will have to own a car in Detroit to get around comfortably. Those cities that you had named do have many options that commuters can use to get around. Commuters who don't own an automobile have to use two inefftective bus systems, DDOT and SMART to get around. The cities that you had named have stronger communities where residents could do their grocery shopping, banking, and retail shopping within their communities. Detroit had lost that necessity during the 1970s thru 90s. The grocery stores in Detroit are not up to code and are deplorable. A person who doesn't own a have to catch an unreliable bus to get to a decent grocery store that is not in the city.Many poor people who don't own cars have to catch the SMART bus into the suburban area to get to their close to minimum wage jobs. Commuters have to catch a city bus to the stop where the SMART Bus will connect to. Many of these city busses are unreliable. Commuters are usually late for their jobs. I feel, sadly to say, that Detroit is too car addicted. Most decisions that are made pertaining to changing the way transit is run in Detroit are in favor of the conveniency to using an automobile. This benefit the BIG 3.

[illwill]

People don't choose Chicago or New York over Detroit only for the trains. People choose those city for the opportunities that Detroit didn't have. Opportunities that includes jobs, shopping, retail, and yes reliable transportation that practically drops a worker or resident off a couple of feet away from the destination and not 50ft. A person who want to live in Detroit or the surrounding suburbs is force to buy a car and high insurance to get around. Two corporations that are probably controlling the decisionmaking done by these elected officials in the city in state. I don't mind waiting in the cold for a few minutes knowing that the transportation will arrive on time. I will know that I might be cold for a few minutes but have more money in my pocket.Most stores in those other cites have their entrances close to the sidewalk where a shopper could get off the bus, trolley, or whatever and walk right into the establishment. A person would have to walk across a massive parking lot to get to the establishment in Detroit. Many employees who work downtown are force to pay a high amount of money to park in the parking structures downtown so they could be close to their jobs. The only option they have is to wait on a SMART bus which had declined in reliability over the past 10 years. These things had made other cities such as New York and Chicago more attractive than the auto friendly city of Detroit

I know Chicago and New York have greattransit systems but "50 feet from the door" good might be stretchingit a bit. Many places are to the door...especially popular destinations. Butmany of these people don't mind living or walking 6 or 8 blocks over bridges,under over passes and through parts of bad neighborhoods to get to or from thetrain. Or they'll take a bus which most time "is" outside of theirdoor and ride that to the nearest "EL" stop.


Also, not only poor people and college students make up a majority ofridership. Everyone uses mass transit in those cities from their Mayors[[Emanuel in Chicago and Bloomberg in NYC) to company CEO's. There are picturesof Mayor Rahm Emanuel sleeping with his mouth wide open riding the train to hisoffice in the morning.

Another thing about those cities...riding the bus "is not" a bad wordor looked down on in NY/CHI. It's just a way to get fom point A to point B.Biking is big too.

[Hermod]

OK, we get a RTA established for the tri-county region supported by a 1.5% added sales tax bite for the tri-county region.

The RTA board [[apportioned as to population) has nineteen members. Oakland County has six seats, Macomb County has four seats, and Wayne County has nine seats [[of which 3-4 are allocated to the City of Detroit.

DDOT and SMART are left to be slowly phased out and rot away as the new RTA slowly takes over the network.

The RTA board prioritizes new lines for rail and bus and lets contracts for their construction.
the board then selects a contractor or contractors to operate the system.

The board members serve for limited terms. The only permanent staff running up legacy costs are an administrator, a treasurer and bursar, some clerks, some contract administators, and inspectors.

[antongast]

Seriously. Who wants to take public transportation in the winter if they could take their own car and park it 50 feet from the door. Nobody is moving to Chicago so they can wait outside in January when their is 8 inches of snow and 10 degrees outside. They are moving there because they can't find a job here. Goodbye to anyone that wants to leave for a fucking train. You weren't a true Detroiter to begin with.

I think transit is a better proposition in the winter than in the summer. Driving in the winter sucks. You get outside, your car is covered with snow and ice and has to be scraped, you get in the car and it's freezing cold for the first ten minutes of your commute, everybody around you is sliding all over the road because nobody in this town knows how to drive in the winter...I'd much rather walk a block to the transit stop, hop on a heated bus or train, and let the driver worry about all the idiots on the road.

[SteveJ]

I went to the grocery store this morning. A whole mile drive. Picked up my groceries, put them in the trunk and came home.

Lets see if I was in Chicago, I would have to walk a mile in 30 degree weather, buy only what I can carry and then walk home in 30 degree weather with a bunch of groceries. Definitely not what I call fun. Forget about when its just pouring in the morning and you have to walk 5 blocks to pick up your train. Transit is great for leisure stuff. But if you have to go to work and get groceries or anything that requires placing in a trunk then forget about it. No way I'm going to give up my BMW to ride on a bus with a homeless person.

[corktownyuppie]

OK, we get a RTA established for the tri-county region supported by a 1.5% added sales tax bite for the tri-county region.

The RTA board [[apportioned as to population) has nineteen members. Oakland County has six seats, Macomb County has four seats, and Wayne County has nine seats [[of which 3-4 are allocated to the City of Detroit.

DDOT and SMART are left to be slowly phased out and rot away as the new RTA slowly takes over the network.

The RTA board prioritizes new lines for rail and bus and lets contracts for their construction.
the board then selects a contractor or contractors to operate the system.

The board members serve for limited terms. The only permanent staff running up legacy costs are an administrator, a treasurer and bursar, some clerks, some contract administators, and inspectors.

I think that's the general direction that the leadership is going in. But I don't think the RTA will be apportioned by population. The Cobo Authority is a 5-seat board with a rep from Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Detroit, and Lansing. [[Lansing = State of MI, not Lansing itself).

Given that the bulk of the funding will come from the wealthiest counties, [[i.e. Somerset Mall generates more sales tax the all the Dollar Generals combined), I don't think there's any way Oakland County is going to be cool with representation by population. I'd be happy if they settled for equal representation as they did in Cobo Hall.