4 dozen Catholic parishes targeted to close, merge in Detroit, suburbs

[ghettopalmetto]

That is truly the bottom line. None of those parishes are in the city, few even in Wayne County.

And that's the kicker. The Diocese spent millions upon millions of dollars building new churches in the suburbs, chasing a fleeing population, and now it's the urban parishes that have to suffer for it.

This, to me, is completely inconsistent with Catholic values.

[Bham1982]

And that's the kicker. The Diocese spent millions upon millions of dollars building new churches in the suburbs, chasing a fleeing population, and now it's the urban parishes that have to suffer for it.

This, to me, is completely inconsistent with Catholic values.

I don't disagree, but the people didn't follow the churches in their relocation. Rather, the churches followed the people.

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

Or take the Jewish population. Let's say all the synagogues stayed open in NW Detroit, even as everyone moved to W. Bloomfield. What's the point? You would lose the subsequent generations. Folks aren't going to drive an hour for worship, religious education, social events, etc.

[ghettopalmetto]

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

Those people know where they go to church, and they certainly consider that when they move. What you wrote here would be similar to me moving 30 miles away, and demanding that my boss relocate the office so that I have a shorter commute. It's a bullshit line of thinking. The Diocese didn't have the money to chase population, and now the bill is coming due.

[jcole]

Those people know where they go to church, and they certainly consider that when they move. What you wrote here would be similar to me moving 30 miles away, and demanding that my boss relocate the office so that I have a shorter commute. It's a bullshit line of thinking. The Diocese didn't have the money to chase population, and now the bill is coming due.

So, the answer was what? Tell the population that moved away that if they wanted to continue to go to mass, they would have to drive 30 miles to go to do so?Yeah, that would fly. The city parishes would still be in the same condition because most people aren't going to do that. It probably would have helped swell the rolls of other denominations.
Or were they supposed to say "you stay in Detroit; if you want to be a Catholic, you have to live in the city"?
The mission of the church is to take God to the faithful, not tell the faithful you either come to us, or find somewhere else to go.
And did you honestly expect the Church to give up all those Sunday collection envelopes by allowing the parishioners to leave the city and not following them?

[antongast]

It probably would have helped swell the rolls of other denominations.

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

[ghettopalmetto]

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

I currently attend a parish founded in 1824, with the physical church itself over 100 years old. Parishoners attend from 26 different ZIP codes--despite there being several other parishes within the vicinity.

I live in a very small diocese, and there is no way in hell the Diocese would ever be able to try to chase suburban sprawl without imploding on itself.

Of course, our Diocese could choose to build a few modernistic shitbox churches in the far suburbs, tear down the beautiful church we currently have, and justifiy it by saying that they "Are following the parishoners". But they won't, because such an idiotic thing costs millions upon millions of dollars.

[jcole]

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

Yes, I have seen people do it.
If you want to remain a 'true' Catholic, you don't go to mass less often; every Sunday is required or you are committing a sin. So what's worse; sinning by missing Mass or sinning by going to another church?

[antongast]

Yes, I have seen people do it.
If you want to remain a 'true' Catholic, you don't go to mass less often; every Sunday is required or you are committing a sin. So what's worse; sinning by missing Mass or sinning by going to another church?

I have no idea which is worse, you'd have to take that up with God.

[Gistok]

I don't disagree, but the people didn't follow the churches in their relocation. Rather, the churches followed the people.

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

It's a sad reality when new and non-descript churches like St. Isadore's [[23 Mile & Romeo Plank Rd.) in Macomb Township have to hold 8 masses each Sat./Sun., just to keep up with the demand for masses by the throngs of people who attended them.

Unlike home builders, businesses and strip malls... it really didn't make financial sense for the Catholic Churches to anticipate where new churches should be built, and the "build it and they will come" mentality wasn't one that the Archdiocese embraced. They had enormous capital tied up in sumptuous churches in the city and inner ring suburbs.

But unfortunately as the faithful older attendees of the older parishes who were willing to make that drive to "the old neighborhood" to attend mass died off.... their offsprings didn't have that allegiance, and instead opted for the more convenient closer parish church, thus overtaxing their resources.

My guess is that among institutions, the catholic churches were the farthest behind in their "relocation mindset".

The sad thing about these older churches is that they have enormous upkeep, and the income just isn't there to maintain both them and their booming suburban brethren. Because of the separation of church and state clause in our constitution, it unfortunately hinders the government support of helping to maintain these beautiful structures. In Europe, where no such separation exists, the governments almost always help out, or in some cases completely control restoration and/or maintenance costs.

Germany's Cologne Cathedral is a prime example. It is the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th largest church on the planet [[depending on how you measure size), and has had scaffolding somewhere on its' 515ft. tall sillouette during all but 2 of the last 50 years. It, like thousands of other chuches across Europe receive money from the local and federal governments for restoration work.

The fault in this case is not on the Archdiocese, but on the Church in Rome [[where the ban on the marriage of priests reduces candidacy), and on parishioners themselves, who moved away from their parishes, to be followed by peoples of other faiths.

As was mentioned, this same scenario happened on a smaller scale with the outmigration of Detroit's Jewry, which slowly migrated northwestward from central Detroit to the periphery of West Bloomfield.... leaving in its' wake a series of empty synagogues, eventually re-used by other faiths, or, as in the case of the Bonstelle Theatre [[former Temple Beth-El) and a Temple in Southfield on Southfield Rd. & Mt. Vernon.... both becoming performing arts centers.

However, the problem with the abandoned/closed parish churches of Detroit.... is that many, if not most are too large for any "maintainable" reuse.

[townonenorth]

However, the problem with the abandoned/closed parish churches of Detroit.... is that many, if not most are too large for any "maintainable" reuse.

That is true. So is the city surrounding them. I don't see any hope of keeping any of these jewels intact after their mothballing. Scrapper's paradise, In some cases.