It WAS nice to dream for a second on transit.

[j to the jeremy]

Conveniently ignoring the fact that without the participation financially of the M1 Rail group, the project has exactly zero chance of going anywhere at all. The number of people ignoring this does not make it untrue.

I know that. It's just extremely frustrating to watch this happen, both sides should have seen this coming years ago.

[Russix]

if the choice is People Mover II or nothing... I say let's save the half billion in taxpayer dollars and do nothing. The private money can build their downtown trolley for 100 mil. without taxpayers assistance.

I think I'm in agreement with this statement. If this project no longer adheres to serving the needs of the public, then private investment should build it and provide an ongoing subsidy to operate it.

[Warrenite84]

Ghettopalmetto, I have to agree with your post #87 concerning a bond issue. I would like to see Wayne County/Port Authority/State of Michigan do an end run around these billionaires and at least leak to the press that they were taking steps to offer a $100 Million bond issue to get the LRT the public wants.

If they knew their trump card was useless, they would either jump onboard or be labeled bait & switch con artists.

Of course such plans are pie-in-the-sky and risky but they can't believe they have all the angles covered. They are doing us a disservice by holding this up and potentially tarnishing their public image as well. I hope they come to their senses and reconsider their position.

[BShea]

Keep this in mind when being critical of M1 Rail:

1. Their original intent was to build their line from Hart Plaza to New Center entirely with private funds, with zero government involvement. They were going to finance it entirely themselves, and the state passed a law to set up the system and provide a subsidy that would have covered operating costs. The intent was to get it done quickly, with getting bogged down in red tape and politicking.
2. M1 had a legal adviser study the situation and they learned they could not do the plan without government involvement. So, under political pressure, they turned everything over to DDOT.
3. The line north of New Center was intended to be build as part of the regional system, extending into the suburbs, and be a higher-speed traditional commuter rail. It was part of the $10 billion regional system to be phased in over 25 years.
4. The political leadership has basically abandoned the regional plan they approved in December 2008.

[Warrenite84]

BShea, what came first, the DTOGS initiative or the M1 Plan? I do believe it was the DTOGS initiative. When the contributors signed onto the DTOGS plan, it was my understanding that they surrendered some degree of control over the project.

According to your above post, can you say that the larger part of this project derailment can be laid at the feet of our four regional governing heads? [[No unified transit system-DART).

[professorscott]

BShea, what came first, the DTOGS initiative or the M1 Plan? I do believe it was the DTOGS initiative. When the contributors signed onto the DTOGS plan, it was my understanding that they surrendered some degree of control over the project.

According to your above post, can you say that the larger part of this project derailment can be laid at the feet of our four regional governing heads? [[No unified transit system-DART).

Bill, back me up on this, but I remember enough to post an answer.

During the time the M1 Rail group was formulating its plan, the DTOGS initiative had not settled on Woodward Avenue. They were considering multiple corridors, and trying to decide what to do with any or all of the multiple corridors. By the time they selected Woodward as their project corridor, they were very well aware of what M1 Rail was doing. So, I can put it this way, M1 Rail chose Woodward for a project site before DTOGS chose Woodward.

You can also read from Bill's post that "under political pressure, [M1 Rail] turned everything over to DDOT". I don't think at any time the M1 Rail project backers said they would commit a hundred megasimoleons to the project no matter how it turned out. Remember, M1 Rail never had a bank account with $100 million in it; they had pledges of support from various stakeholders, and anyone in the nonprofit realm can tell you, pledges are usually conditional.

Finally, the regional governing heads have very little to do with the current state of affairs, except very indirectly Mayor Bing. The argument now is between DDOT, which the Mayor pays very little attention to, and the community of stakeholders who were prepared to spend $100 million of their own money to build a particular kind of system which they believed would provide a certain benefit to the community. [[And to themselves, eventually, at very high risk, sure, if you must.)

The people on this thread and others who keep bashing Messrs. Penske, Cullen, etc. need to understand that: [[1) the M1 Rail backers are under no obligation whatsoever to spend one dollar on any public transit system, even the one they proposed. [[2) No light rail will be built without at least most of the pledged M1 Rail money. Any discussion ignoring those two facts is just a flailing in the wind, devoid of meaning or reality. You can say, would that it were otherwise, but it just ain't.

[brizee]

Keep this in mind when being critical of M1 Rail:


4. The political leadership has basically abandoned the regional plan they approved in December 2008.

...Why? WHY?

Whatever. I hope the backers keep their money, and the municipalities keep doing things the way they've been doing it.

It's been working out splendidly for them.

[professorscott]

The idea of the regional plan was that it would be implemented by a regional transit authority with some dedicated type of funding [[other than the stupid SMART opt-in millage nonsense).

The regional transit authority legislation in 2009 didn't get anywhere, for a variety of reasons. Without that, there isn't anybody who CAN implement any part of the plan. SMART, if it had some extra money, perhaps could, but it doesn't. DDOT can't do anything truly regional, because of the limitations inherent in its scope, though it does manage to provide bus service to opt-out Livonia.

So if you want to blame someone, blame the legislature for failing to pass RTA legislation, and if you want to go back a few more years, blame John Engler for vetoing the only RTA legislation that ever did get through the house and senate.

[Richard]

The first street car routes were privately owned and funded then sold to the city ,so in this case could not the city sell the rights even if it was for a $1 for a Woodward line? Its a master plan and we will sell you this section with the first option on a buy back, should it not succeed the value would then be minimal in the mean time it gets built and the future will tell its course.

[brizee]

The idea of the regional plan was that it would be implemented by a regional transit authority with some dedicated type of funding [[other than the stupid SMART opt-in millage nonsense).

The regional transit authority legislation in 2009 didn't get anywhere, for a variety of reasons. Without that, there isn't anybody who CAN implement any part of the plan. SMART, if it had some extra money, perhaps could, but it doesn't. DDOT can't do anything truly regional, because of the limitations inherent in its scope, though it does manage to provide bus service to opt-out Livonia.

So if you want to blame someone, blame the legislature for failing to pass RTA legislation, and if you want to go back a few more years, blame John Engler for vetoing the only RTA legislation that ever did get through the house and senate.

Now that you mention it I do remember that. It fizzled some time in Dec 09

I don't appreciate or comprehend it, but I do remember it hapening.

[erikd]

\quote{The mayor bristled a bit, though, in addressing the whispers about dysfunction in his office that are increasing among the business leaders gathered here.
"I get a lot of lip service from a lot of people about wanting to be supportive, but not much help," he said. "Everybody has opinions. What we need is more help meeting our many needs."
Asked who he was referring to, Bing singled out the business community.}

MESSAGE TO THE MAYOR: The business community wants to give you $125 million to build a light rail line on Woodward. This is exactly the type of help that you need. Stop complaining and get this deal done.

[Hypestyles]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011108090336

Detroit City Council President Charles Pugh expressed concern that Mayor Dave Bing's administration has been heavy-handed with wealthy private investors and civic and philanthropic groups that have pledged $100 million in seed money for the Woodward project.
"My concern is that they're going to walk away because they don't feel like they're being heard," Pugh said after the meeting. "I want to make sure that doesn't happen

[tangerine]

I have to say I agree with the city. The people supporting curbside have never tried to commute on a cubside system. It crawls along.

That's why they call it "rapid" transit.

[brizee]

Previous issues annoyed me. This one just depresses me.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...could-get-axed

A poor black Democrat leaning city?
Badly needed expensive infrastructure overhaul?

Cocksuckers are gonna cast this project straight to hell.

[stromberg2]

Wow, what a fucked up area!

Stromberg2