Patterson positioning himself for a fifth term ...

[Detroitnerd]

I guess the explanation is that Detroit's city leadership had a time machine. They went back in time and, at key moments in national decision-making, convinced officials to make decisions that would make Detroit poorer and less educated. Then, sensing their moment, they ran for office. Truly it is all their fault.

[Bham1982]

You blatantly ignore history in favor of determining long-term trends from examining only the current blip in time.

No one is "blatantly ignoring history".

No one expects Pontiac schools to perform like Bloomfield schools. That's why Pontiac receives extra Title I funding. No expects Pontiac municipality to perform like Bloomfield municipality. That's why Pontiac receives federal block grants and state revenue sharing.

The point is that historical injustices do not excuse widespread municipal malfeasance.

Pontiac has been run by idiots for the past half century.

They're still paying for the Silverdome. They destroyed their downtown for a ring road and parking lots. They wasted millions on the ridiculous "Bloomfield Park". They built a train station 15 years ago, which was never occupied, and has since been demolished. Still paying for it.

Hell, Pontiac still owns a huge and elaborate municpal golf course. They still own lakefront properties. How about selling these assets?

The city is basically done for. The school district is winding down, the county is handling police, and a state manager handles most municipal functions. The mayor and city council are merely figure heads.

[Detroitnerd]

The point is that historical injustices do not excuse widespread municipal malfeasance.

You're right. All they do is EXPLAIN it. Which would help us understand how our region got this way. So we can understand what needs to be done to fix things.

Then again, I think I understand your point of view Bham. To consider how things occurred would intrude too much upon the cozy worldview cultivated up Woodward Avenue...

[Fnemecek]

so, who.. if anyone at all.. has a legitimate chance of challenging him on the Democratic side of things?

Dave Bing. We just have to convince him to move back to Oakland County to do it.

[bartock]

It DID affect every city: Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Erie, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Toledo, Chicago, Washington... All of these cities saw identical phenomena as Detroit and Pontiac in the postwar years. The difference is that cities like Detroit, Pontiac, and Flint [[and Youngstown) suffered the effects disproportionately compared to their peers, thanks to a reliance on automobile manufacturing that was shipped out to the suburbs and rural areas of the Midwest. That phenomenon has been occurring for SIXTY years.

If you spend 30 years subsidizing the emptying out of central cities by the stabilizing middle-class, then it's disingenous to be dumbfounded as to why incompetence started showing up among local politicians.

I think your points are fair, but my point is after arguably 30-40 years of incompetence among local politicians, it starts to get chicken/egg-ish.

[Novine]

"No one expects Pontiac schools to perform like Bloomfield schools. That's why Pontiac receives extra Title I funding. No expects Pontiac municipality to perform like Bloomfield municipality. That's why Pontiac receives federal block grants and state revenue sharing."

News flash, so does every other school district and community in Oakland County. Pontiac may get more dollars total but only because it has more students and residents in need. You make it sound like Pontiac is awash in money and everyone one else is getting by on less. Totally untrue.

"The districts with the highest per pupil instructional spending in 2009-10 were: Bloomfield Hills
[[$8,968); Southfield [[$8,846); Oak Park [[$7,814); Troy [[$7,727); and Birmingham [[$7,572). The
average per pupil instructional expenditure in Oakland County was over $6,500. "

http://www.oakgov.com/peds/assets/do...Fast_Facts.pdf

[Bham1982]

News flash, so does every other school district and community in Oakland County. Pontiac may get more dollars total but only because it has more students and residents in need. You make it sound like Pontiac is awash in money and everyone one else is getting by on less. Totally untrue.

I don't know where you came up with this. Nothing I wrote implied anything re. Pontiac receiving more money than anyone else.

In fact, I explicitly stated that Pontiac had less than other places. You don't qualify for supplemental aid unless you meet the standards for need, whether we're talking school districts or municipalities.

[luckycar]

But we're still here in Pontiac.Selling used cars since '52.And if this joint goes down the drain,we'll still be here......

[Det_ard]

I guess I gotta agree with Dnerd. The forces of the past have so overwhelmed the populace that places like Pontiac and Detroit are inherently unable to self-govern. What better argument could he make for a benevolent total takeover of both by outside, enlightened interests? I think Kipling foresaw this.

[Detroitnerd]

I think instead of taking over, it would be nice to see areas merge and share the load. What are you going to do with poor people? Feel all insecure about them or regard them as our neighbors? Part of our community? I think that's what it's going to take. Around these parts, it's a tall order, but I know we'd be a stronger region for it.

If that sounds bad to you, look at L. Brooks' alternative. We void the city entirely and have it turn into a no-man's land like Royal Oak Township or something? This cannot be the answer...

[Vox]

I think instead of taking over, it would be nice to see areas merge and share the load. What are you going to do with poor people? Feel all insecure about them or regard them as our neighbors? Part of our community? I think that's what it's going to take. Around these parts, it's a tall order, but I know we'd be a stronger region for it.

If that sounds bad to you, look at L. Brooks' alternative. We void the city entirely and have it turn into a no-man's land like Royal Oak Township or something? This cannot be the answer...

Wait... isn't it already to that point outside of the green zone in spots?
And I can't say that RO Township is that bad, in comparison to vast sections of Detroit. .

Anyway, I'm unclear how regional governance would help anything. For example, one of the reasons Hamtramck has escaped the fate of Poletown and North Hamtramck [[N of Carpenter) is it's autonomy from Detroit. Responsive police and fire kept the business section thriving, as well as the bars and restaurants. This didn't happen by accident

[Detroit Stylin]

"No one expects Pontiac schools to perform like Bloomfield schools. That's why Pontiac receives extra Title I funding. No expects Pontiac municipality to perform like Bloomfield municipality. That's why Pontiac receives federal block grants and state revenue sharing."

News flash, so does every other school district and community in Oakland County. Pontiac may get more dollars total but only because it has more students and residents in need. You make it sound like Pontiac is awash in money and everyone one else is getting by on less. Totally untrue.

"The districts with the highest per pupil instructional spending in 2009-10 were: Bloomfield Hills
[[$8,968); Southfield [[$8,846); Oak Park [[$7,814); Troy [[$7,727); and Birmingham [[$7,572). The
average per pupil instructional expenditure in Oakland County was over $6,500. "

http://www.oakgov.com/peds/assets/do...Fast_Facts.pdf

IOW....we are and have been for at least 20 years experiencing de facto school segregation cleverly disguised as property taxes...

[Detroitnerd]

Wait... isn't it already to that point outside of the green zone in spots?
And I can't say that RO Township is that bad, in comparison to vast sections of Detroit. .

Anyway, I'm unclear how regional governance would help anything. For example, one of the reasons Hamtramck has escaped the fate of Poletown and North Hamtramck [[N of Carpenter) is it's autonomy from Detroit. Responsive police and fire kept the business section thriving, as well as the bars and restaurants. This didn't happen by accident

I would argue that it isn't so much autonomy from Detroit as that Hamtramck operates much the same way an old city ward used to. A small geographic area with responsive officials responsible for 2.1 square miles. You know who to bother when something irks you in town, and you see the mayor, city council and other folks in government on the street, in bars, in stores. We have a joke in Hamtramck. If you have a problem, call the mayor. Usually like this: "Hey, Karen!"

[Vox]

I would argue that it isn't so much autonomy from Detroit as that Hamtramck operates much the same way an old city ward used to. A small geographic area with responsive officials responsible for 2.1 square miles. You know who to bother when something irks you in town, and you see the mayor, city council and other folks in government on the street, in bars, in stores. We have a joke in Hamtramck. If you have a problem, call the mayor. Usually like this: "Hey, Karen!"

In other words, autonomy. If Detroit took over Hamtramck, kiss it goodbye.

[Detroitnerd]

In other words, autonomy. If Detroit took over Hamtramck, kiss it goodbye.

If Detroit as it is took Hamtramck over, yes. But that's why Detroit needs to return to a system of district representation. Detroit remains the last big city in the United States without district representation, which means if you have a problem in Delray, you are at the mercy of a bunch of councilmembers who live in better neighborhoods than you and are only accountable at-large. That's why the "name game" is such a big deal in Detroit council politics. If we were to return to district voting with wards [[the more the better) we could have officials who were accountable -- as in Hamtramck. I think neighborhood councils would also be a good idea.

[Vox]

If Detroit as it is took Hamtramck over, yes. But that's why Detroit needs to return to a system of district representation. Detroit remains the last big city in the United States without district representation, which means if you have a problem in Delray, you are at the mercy of a bunch of councilmembers who live in better neighborhoods than you and are only accountable at-large. That's why the "name game" is such a big deal in Detroit council politics. If we were to return to district voting with wards [[the more the better) we could have officials who were accountable -- as in Hamtramck. I think neighborhood councils would also be a good idea.

But Detroit still has the Detroit Police Department. Wards don't give you a separate police department. Or fire, for that matter. There is no replacement for direct supervision of your destiny. Also, the taxes that are paid by Hamtramck residents and businesses are returned to Hamtramck. Even in a ward system, the taxes paid by Hamtown would be severly diluted and diverted by the larger entity.

[Detroitnerd]

But Detroit still has the Detroit Police Department. Wards don't give you a separate police department. Or fire, for that matter. There is no replacement for direct supervision of your destiny. Also, the taxes that is paid by Hamtramck residents and businesses are returned to Hamtramck. Even in a ward system, the taxes paid by Hamtown would be severly diluted and diverted by the larger entity.

What are you trying to say? That Detroit is corrupt and has some pretty ineffective services? Yeah, we know that. In addition to the structural problems outlined above, this is because it's populated by poor people who don't vote intelligently. I love Hamtramck. It is the densest, most diverse city in Michigan. For the time being, I hope it stays independent. It actually lifts up the Detroit neighborhood I live in because it is a destination for immigrants, a plurality where no ethnic group wields too much power. Many good things to say about it.

So, when it comes to district voting, I say, give Detroiters a chance. Give them local representatives and see if they'll hold their feet to the fire.

Now, if Detroit had a ward system, then I think Hamtramck might be able to better merge with Detroit. You get tremendous economies of scale in a city. As a Detroit resident, I'm happy with my garbage pickup. My neighborhood is safe enough to where I don't have much need for the police. The fire department seems pretty speedy. I'd just want a voice at city hall. Preferably a loud one. As for "diverting" my taxes to fund other people, I believe that's the whole purpose of taxes, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

[DetroitPole]

Okay, I'm going to put it out there:

Who votes for this guy? What is wrong with these people?

He is running on a platform of "fuck our capitol city, things are getting shitty here but hey it could be happening quicker, and for the umpteenth time, fuck Detroit, at least we're not Detroit"

Can somebody put those on a bumper sticker?
Vote L. Brooks Patterson for Oakland County Exec. At Least We're Not Detroit

Vote L. Brooks Patterson for Oakland County Exec. Diminished rate of decline: We'll probably all be dead before things get really bad

Vote L. Brooks Patterson for Oakland County Exec. The Greatest County in the Galaxy, except for Pontiac.

Can he just give up any false pretences and occassional photo ops with the mayor and declare war or something on Detroit already? His duplicity is sickening. Maybe he could come and forcibly take away its 12 remaining middle class residents and then laud how Oakland County has actually grown in population and wealth all thanks to him and because Detroit blows, like he has for the past how many decades.

[Vox]

What are you trying to say? That Detroit is corrupt and has some pretty ineffective services? Yeah, we know that. In addition to the structural problems outlined above, this is because it's populated by poor people who don't vote intelligently. I love Hamtramck. It is the densest, most diverse city in Michigan. For the time being, I hope it stays independent. It actually lifts up the Detroit neighborhood I live in because it is a destination for immigrants, a plurality where no ethnic group wields too much power. Many good things to say about it.

So, when it comes to district voting, I say, give Detroiters a chance. Give them local representatives and see if they'll hold their feet to the fire.

Now, if Detroit had a ward system, then I think Hamtramck might be able to better merge with Detroit. You get tremendous economies of scale in a city. As a Detroit resident, I'm happy with my garbage pickup. My neighborhood is safe enough to where I don't have much need for the police. The fire department seems pretty speedy. I'd just want a voice at city hall. Preferably a loud one. As for "diverting" my taxes to fund other people, I believe that's the whole purpose of taxes, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

What am I trying to say? It's quite simple. Hands off of Hamtramck. Period.

And obviously you must live in the green zone, then... I know you don't live in any of the neighboring areas in Detroit and talk the way you just did. If you were to call an ambulance, would it come? Maybe, or certainly?

[Detroitnerd]

What am I trying to say? It's quite simple. Hands off of Hamtramck. Period.

Well, there we differ. I could envision certain ways Hamtramck could be merged with Detroit. The conditions don't meet my approval right now, but they could. In theory. Nothing is impossible. Heck, Hamtramck's city manager Bill Cooper has even been talking about merging services with Detroit or Highland Park. Even in small ways, it's not off the radar.

And obviously you must live in the green zone, then... I know you don't live in any of the neighboring areas in Detroit and talk the way you just did. If you were to call an ambulance, would it come? Maybe, or certainly?

I'm not familiar with your usage of "green zone." I live in Detroit, just outside Hamtramck. It is a nice little neighborhood. If I were to call an ambulance, it would come. Ambulances always come. They do often take a while. I don't expect the fantastic response times I got when I lived in New York, of course. But then I can afford my life in Detroit. The price of living in New York was too onerous.

Hey, I have a nice life in my little neighborhood. I know my neighbors. Have a nice double lot and a driveway. The lot sizes are large and there are plenty of honey locust trees. I like biking through the neighborhood and smelling the awesome South Asian cookery. I like the new markets sprouting up along Conant. I like being able to walk to the store, the bar, etc. If ambulances were my first priority, then maybe I'd consider living someplace else, but ...

[Vox]

Well, there we differ. I could envision certain ways Hamtramck could be merged with Detroit. The conditions don't meet my approval right now, but they could. In theory. Nothing is impossible. Heck, Hamtramck's city manager Bill Cooper has even been talking about merging services with Detroit or Highland Park. Even in small ways, it's not off the radar.

It would be a serious mistake. But if Bill Cooper thinks it's a good idea, by all means go for it.

I'm not familiar with your usage of "green zone." I live in Detroit, just outside Hamtramck. It is a nice little neighborhood. If I were to call an ambulance, it would come. Ambulances always come. They do often take a while. I don't expect the fantastic response times I got when I lived in New York, of course. But then I can afford my life in Detroit. The price of living in New York was too onerous.

Hey, I have a nice life in my little neighborhood. I know my neighbors. Have a nice double lot and a driveway. The lot sizes are large and there are plenty of honey locust trees. I like biking through the neighborhood and smelling the awesome South Asian cookery. I like the new markets sprouting up along Conant. I like being able to walk to the store, the bar, etc. If ambulances were my first priority, then maybe I'd consider living someplace else, but ...

From previous posts from you about transit and walkability, I guess that I got the impression that you lived in midtown.

So then the saving grace in all of this is the massive influx of immigrants, at least in their neighborhood. I'd think that they are very intolerant of any bullshit in their neighborhood. More people should be that way in the care and feeding of their neighborhood, patronizing local business, and in general, being a community. You don't get that everywhere, even in Hamtramck.

[Detroitnerd]

It would be a serious mistake. But if Bill Cooper thinks it's a good idea, by all means go for it.

Again, Vox, I think you're looking for some sort of disagreement where there is none. I don't think Hamtramck should merge into the municipality of Detroit right now. As far as sharing services, there's no reason to not look into it. Public officials have to look at all options; that way they can become more informed and state clearly why or why not they wouldn't do it. I don't much like hearing Ken Cockrel Jr. talk about unilaterally merging Hamtramck with Detroit, but I am not too bothered by Bill looking into it and reporting back [[he is diligent, at least).

From previous posts from you about transit and walkability, I guess that I got the impression that you lived in midtown.

No. I am pretty familiar with that area, though. I've lived in Cass Corridor/Student Ghetto a few times over the years, since 1990.

So then the saving grace in all of this is the massive influx of immigrants, at least in their neighborhood. I'd think that they are very intolerant of any bullshit in their neighborhood. More people should be that way in the care and feeding of their neighborhood, patronizing local business, and in general, being a community. You don't get that everywhere, even in Hamtramck.

Well, that's true, but it's a challenge too. I mean, think of all the language experts you need at school. Haha. I mean, something like 40 percent of Hamtramck schoolkids speak a language other than English at home, and we have Bosnians, Catholic Albanians, Yemenis, Bangladeshis, etc. I like them. Except some of them drive a little too slow in general. A small complaint, I guess.

[rjk]

Well, there we differ. I could envision certain ways Hamtramck could be merged with Detroit. The conditions don't meet my approval right now, but they could. In theory. Nothing is impossible. Heck, Hamtramck's city manager Bill Cooper has even been talking about merging services with Detroit or Highland Park. Even in small ways, it's not off the radar.



I'm not familiar with your usage of "green zone." I live in Detroit, just outside Hamtramck. It is a nice little neighborhood. If I were to call an ambulance, it would come. Ambulances always come. They do often take a while. I don't expect the fantastic response times I got when I lived in New York, of course. But then I can afford my life in Detroit. The price of living in New York was too onerous.

Hey, I have a nice life in my little neighborhood. I know my neighbors. Have a nice double lot and a driveway. The lot sizes are large and there are plenty of honey locust trees. I like biking through the neighborhood and smelling the awesome South Asian cookery. I like the new markets sprouting up along Conant. I like being able to walk to the store, the bar, etc. If ambulances were my first priority, then maybe I'd consider living someplace else, but ...

Most people find that kind of response to take down a dead tree acceptable, but not when you're talking about life and death situations and the need for an ambulance. Ambulances "taking a while" is one of the reasons that people have been fleeing the city in large numbers and will continue to do so. There's a former Detroiter in my neighborhood that mentioned slow police/ems times as one of the reasons that she moved.

[Detroitnerd]

Most people find that kind of response to take down a dead tree acceptable, but not when you're talking about life and death situations and the need for an ambulance. Ambulances "taking a while" is one of the reasons that people have been fleeing the city in large numbers and will continue to do so. There's a former Detroiter in my neighborhood that mentioned slow police/ems times as one of the reasons that she moved.

Again, I think I stated pretty clearly that a five-minute-or-less ambulance response time is not a big concern for LITTLE OL' ME. I am not trying to defend Detroit's ambulance response times; it's just that, for where I live, they are not a major concern to me. Similarly, we don't have a whole lot of crime in our neighborhood. I think it's because we are a tight little group on the block and sit on our porches and leave our streetlights on and stuff like that. So there's not a lot a split-second police response means to us. It's not like we're barricaded in our homes fending off characters from The Road Warrior, right?

Certain people are going to be drawn to that mix of affordability and walkability that neighborhoods like Hamtramck offer. I am one of them. That's all. On the grounds of super public services, no, my little neighborhood is not going to compete. And that's fine with LITTLE OL' ME.

[j to the jeremy]

Ahhh...Oakland County Executive using the demise of his county seat to trash Detroit. That's Pure Michigan™.

Don't forget, as long as he's in power, we will never have a regional transit authority or a real light rail system...

But that won't stop his constituents from complaining that light rail doesn't reach them.